Pager Pal vs. Smart Carry

G

Garand Illusion

New member
In the last year and a half I think I have spent about as much $$ on concealable holsters as concealable weapons, and I have both a Pager Pal and a Smart Carry (as well as a few others rarely used).

My goal is to continue to dress as I like (blue jeans/tucked in t-shirt) while carrying concealed in a manner that is effective and totally unnoticeable. Oddly enough :rolleyes: I'm finding this is not as easy as I thought.

Part of the reason are my own rules, which are just for me and please don't bother arguing the below -- I'm not trying to push them on anybody else:

1. No pocket carry (I'm just too forgetful for this and don't like it).
2. Weapon must have an external safety as well as a hammer block (this limits my choices, as for instance the tiny Kahr has only the trigger pull for safety).
3. Do not want to have to start dressing for concealed carry -- i.e. the loose shirts necessary for well concealed IWB.
4. Carry in a "bag", such as a camera bag or belly bag, is only appropriate when I'm hiking/4-wheeling in the mountains. (around town, even if looked acceptable, a mugger is going to take a camera bag or belly bag first, and I don't want to have to hand over my piece to the BG who mugs me as if it's well concealed it continues to be an option if things escalate after he gets my wallet).

So here is my review of these two different deep concealment methods; enjoy the benefit of about $150 or so in expenditure:

Pager Pal:
I think I'm the only one on the board that likes this little leather holster -- but I can't say I give it a total thumbs up.

With some trimming of the holster with a razor (one size fits all leather holsters generally don't -- as it came it was very difficult to draw from) and a little practice I've gotten very good with this carrying my 605 snubby. Although it takes a 2 handed draw I an get this weapon out quite quickly and it's well concealed. I use the phone carrier instead of the fake pager, and it's actually a good phone carrier even when I unattach the holster and just use it for my phone.

The biggest issue with it is that whenever I'm sitting down that gun is pointing at people. The reason I only carry 4 rounds in my 5 shot revolver is that several times I have been sitting down with my toddler nearby and realized the gun beneath my pants was pointing in her general direction. Freaked me out, and as a result I started leaving the first chamber empty (but believe me, I can *click--bang* in a hurry. I train this way). 4 rounds of 38+p isn't a lot, but it's a lot better than me saying "Stop ... Quit it ... I mean it ..."

One problem, though ... I moved "up" to a Bersa 9mm, because with its double safeties I felt safe carrying full capacity with one in the tube (Hard to believe that a revolver-guy like me decided that an auto was safer for daily carry, but I think my reasoning is good).

The Bersa Thunder ultra compact 9 seemed about the same in most dimensions as the revolver (and it is, but the handle is considerably larger) and I liked the double safeties and the extra capacity (11 vs. 4). Overall I love this gun, but it doesn't work will with the pager pal.

Although it doesn't print as a gun, the Pager Pal with the Bersa looks like I have something rather large in my pocket. Not a big deal as i don't think anyone would notice, but the killer is that I can't get this gun out quickly. The larger butt quite often catches on my shirt or waist and I have a hard time pulling the whole works up and out. Worked great with the snubby; mediocre with the auto and I just don't trust it to allow me to get mey weapon out in a decent fashion. A weapon that gets tangled up on the draw so that you have to pause to figure out where it's caught is often worse than no weapon at all (easy to get hurt while you're trying to figure out why it won't come clear).

Smart Carry

So I ordered the smart carry. Have been playing with it for about a week.

Now ... I know a lot of people swear by this, but the jury is still out for me.

When I carry it "down the middle", as is shown in the many pictures on their website, I find it uncomfortable and it makes it look like I'm some kind of deformed porno star -- if you know what I mean -- whever I sit down or take an odd stance. And if I'm wearing khaki cotton shorts it clearly prints as a gun when I sit with my legs crossed.

Recently I've tried moving it to the side (under my front pocket) and carrying it fairly low (like almost down my thigh), and this may not work too bad. I can still reach down and get it pretty quickly. I'm guessing seeing me reach into my pants is going to be a bit disconcerting to a attacker, but that works in my favor. Once it's out I could care less what he thinks.

Another down side is that I can't really seem to safely re-holster without taking my pants down. This is not a big deal, because if I ever have to draw it a lot of S will be HTF before I need to put it back.

On the plus side this gun tends to point down at my leg (not my invaluable private parts, as many seem to think it would). If I am stupid enough to have an ND I would much rather take it in the leg than risk my sweet little girl or an innocent bystander.

Conclusion:

Pager Pal is great for my little snubby or, I'm sure, a smaller auto like the Kahr. It's marginal for even a small sized auto, though, and you have to accept you'll often be pointing your weapon (well holstered with the trigger covered) at people you don't mean to shoot.

Smart Carry will effectively carry a larger weapon (have't actually tried it with my 1911, but I think I have the wrong size) but it's not quite as comfortable as the Pager Pal.

I'm afraid I may have to give up and buy a .380.

Anyone have any thoughts on a really small auto in 9mm that has a hammer block, external safety, decocker and is either DA or DAO? Right now I'm thinking of the new concealable Bersa Thunder .380. Thinner than the 9 by quite a bit, and still better capacity than the more powerful .357.
 
If you can find one; check out a Browning BDM (No longer made). Although it is a 9mm doublestack with a service length barrel it is quite flat and may be close to what you are looking for. They are very "soft" - no sharp edges or corners. And very well made; the result of a Secret Service specification for which Browning much have spent alot of time and money only to have the SS change their entire shooping list midstream. It was a marketing failure on the commercial market, probably mainly due to the safety operation alone.

It has two modes; DAO and conventional DA by simply turning a screw in the slide. The low frame mounted safety operates "UP" for fire, and IIRC acts as a decocker. Problem might be finding one locally to handle before buying.

I am not a DA pistol fan, and turned one down at a show at a very low price a few years back; but if I ever come across one of these again at the right price with cash in hand I probably will not pass it up.
 
i had a pager pal, i never could get comfortable with it, it never left the house with a gun in it. had a situation occured, i would have been long since dead while trying to get my weapon out of that thing. thank God for ebay, i got most of my money back on it.
 
It's time for a reality check. Frankly, you need to re-think your "rules" and use a reason based approach versus an emotion based approach. For example, there is no logical reason at all for a modern DA revolver with an empty chamber or being "too forgetful" for pocket carry (but not "too forgetful" for a Pager Pal or Smart Carry). Concealed carry requires a certain amount of commitment--both in terms of lifestyle and sometimes dress--that you seem to be unwilling to make. If you are really as afraid of handguns as you sound like you are, you'd probably be better off looking at some other means of defence.
 
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I completely understand!

I am the same way!
For my own reasons, I need to have ultra-concealment most of the time- and like you, I had to figure out how to do it efficiently and comfortably.

And i was privately annoyed when someone suggested I 'compromise' my concealment, for whatever solution they then proposed- since, essentially, they were not answering the question i asked. OK, enogh of that.

Anyway, I also dress like you alot: pants (jeans or shorts or khakis), t-shirt often tucked in, and if tucked in I wear a belt.

I think my build (quite broad with a reasonably trim waist) had alot to do with it, too: I have a fair amount of 'free space' under each arm.

One thing I do that you don't is that I do wear a beltpack EVERYWHERE. But guess what... I almost never carry in it! But in any case, it does provide additional cover for anything that might be otherwise creating a bulge in my pants. Also, I usually carry a full-size. If I carried a smaller pistol, my choices would definitely be different.(*)

So given all that, I found a couple that I like:

Tucked shirt, belt:
Keep in mind that all of these would involve yanking up my shirt to draw...
The Hoffner's ITP Shirt Tucker is almost perfect. Almost...
It does ride very high, such that only the last inch or so of barrel/slide is under the belt. So while the bulk of it is hidden by the shirt, because it is tucked you can see the asymmetry (bulge) where the muzzle is below the belt, right in between these 2 plastic clips. I unfortunately wear a weave belt, thin. If I wore a 1-1&1/2" wide belt, the clips wouldn't show.
Also, while a fair amount of shirt can be tucked in between the clips (over the pistol, under your pants: thus, ITP) if you wear a really long shirt you will have some redistributing to do to get it tucked in evenly.
So i thought that if only I could get an even HIGHER ride on my hip, so that it floated above the belt eliminating the belt-bulge. Most shoulder holsters print like a woman's bra when wearing just a t-shirt (almost never an undershirt with it) which is PLENTY eye-catching when seen on a guy who doesn't normally wear a bra! One I am really looking foward to trying is a cloth one called the Kangaroo. It is very broad to avoid the "Hey, cpileri, what the ... oh, I see"-bra-wearing-guy look and is supposedly adjustable enough to fit where I have the most 'free space'. I can let you know when I try it.
An IWB, at 1230 position (i.e. right beside Mr. Happy) hooked onto my UNDERWEAR (not pants. really, not kidding) and supported by tightening my belt over the grip- it sorta hooks over the belt- works pretty well with a snub revolver as the gun has a naturally curved profile, and it fits right in the crease between the groin and thigh. There is definitely the 'happy to see you' bulge and this necessitates loose pants (gym shorts is the usual) or else the addition of the fanny pack to cover it. It is not fast to draw and most people don't feel comfortable carrying so close to their business.
Although the belt support for the holster is nice, I find this style of dress the hardest to conceal in.
I haven't tried ankle holsters, though- cuz I very often wear shorts.
I also tried the pager pal for awhile, and it isn't bad. Doesn't print, etc. But, frankly, the best place to conceal it is right in front and there it gets uncomfortably warm. i hate that feeling. Just me.

Tucked shirt, no belt: I almost never adopt this style of dress.

UNtucked shirt, belt:
The easiest way to conceal, i think.
Belt can support the Hoffners, or any other ITP/IWB, or even an outside hip holster. Shirt just billows out hanging down from above and conceals it 100%- unless the wind blows.
I just have to watch the usual: reaching overhead (flashing), or bending to the side (printing), etc. No, in TX it is not a crime to print or accidentally flash as there was no intent to brandish. But for my own reasons, neither is acceptable.

UNtucked shirt, no belt: Same as untucked with belt, except without the belt support i find myself readjusting not only side-to-side, but pulling it back up as well. OK if not very active.

I tried the BellyBand and really liked the height of the carry, and the lack of printing with it. But i added more velcro to it to make it more adjustable and tighter to my waist so it would stay up. It is also VERY wide and not made of absorbent material- so it doesn't get stink but it does stay wet if you sweat.
It was in my thinking that a belly band with a shoulder strap to hold it up would be just right that led me to try the kangaroo- which I am waiting on.
I am looking foward to that kangaroo, though.

(*): one thing I have to admit I like with a keltec p32 is a kydex holster on a chain! Its small and light and while certainly heavier than a set of dog tags, its not bad nor painful to the skin of my neck. I have a kinda big chest, so it sits right down and is well hidden- when leaning over, most people dont expect to see a pistol they expect a cricifix or dog tags or something. So far, I've never been 'made'. Especially with the untucked shirt, I can very rapidly reach up and draw it. It does break one rule, in that it points to the left (I'm right handed) when worn. I still like it. Its not for everyone though, and don't waste $$ buying it- get a 1/8" or 1/10" thick sheet of kydex and a heat gun and melt one yourself for 3 bucks.

Hope this was useful,
C-
 

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LOL. I knew I would get flamed for some things I said; I NEVER thought I would be accused of being afraid of guns:

It's time for a reality check. Frankly, you need to re-think your "rules" and use a reason based approach versus an emotion based approach. ... If you are really as afraid of handguns as you sound like you are, you'd probably be better off looking at some other means of defence.
Click to expand...

I've owned handguns since I was 16, though admittedly I haven't considered the realities of carrying one until the last few years. Not afraid of them; just learned a healthy respect by seeing what can happen when people get lax. I also compete in high power rifle matches when I can borrow a club rifle, and one thing I've also come to respect (they used to be annoying) are all of the fiercely enforced safety protocols of an NRA match.

If I KNEW I had to go to a dangerous place and no way to avoid it, I would dress for concealment and strap up to the teeth. Probably my 1911 .45 locked and cocked as primary, high cap 9mm as backup, and the .357 5 shot jammed into a boot. And if confronted by a life threatening BG I would have no problem subduing him without hesitation.

That said ... I will probably (hopefully) spend the next 40 years or so carrying a weapon I never use. This means 14,600 days of arming and disarming, holstering a loaded weapon and chambering a round ... etc. All of those things that give the tiniest opportunity for an ND in case of human error (and BTW -- I am a human).

So ... given my current threat assessment (and yes, while anything can happen anywhere, it is possible to say it's less likely today when I'm going to my suburban supermarket than tomorrow night, when I'm going downtown) I don't want to base my life and style of dress around carrying a weapon. I want to carry a weapon, but if necessary I will compromise power for concealability to fit my lifestyle. I shoot very well and if I have to drop to a .380 I can put a lot of rounds on target very quickly.

Pocket carry is fine for many people, including my FIL the LEO, but just not for me. Why? Because for whatever reason I can seem to remember to keep things like keys out of that pocket. While I could probably train this behaviour out after awhile, I also have the problem that different pants have different size pockets and the gun fits differently. Nothing against pocket carry -- just not for me.

The pager pal or smart carry secure the weapon well while keeping the trigger covered. I feel very safe in this mode, and while I'm always aware of where the gun is it doesn't restrict me from using my pockets, etc.

BTW -- the empty chamber I carry is not below the hammer -- I know that's safe with modern revolvers and hammer blocks. It's actually the first chamber in line. So if you drew my gun and pulled the trigger it would *click*. The next shot, though, will DEFINITLY go bang. This really isn't a big deal. Knowing the first chamber is empty, I just automatically pull the trigger twice before expecting a shot. Certainly faster than carrying an auto with no round in the chamber, which some people choose to do.
 
Thanks Cpileri. Great reply. I don't have a belly band yet, though I know some swear by them.

In terms of your IWB on your underwear next to Mr. Happy ... that's kind of what the smart carry tries to accomplish, except it supports itself.

My own feeling on carrying a gun next to the groin is ... if you're carrying a gun in an unsafe manner that you don't want it pointed at your genitals, then should you be carrying it at all? From time to time a holstered gun is going to be pointed at someone's genitals or someone's head.

Nothing wrong with a belt pack ... when hiking I usually carry one and on long trips I often use one for my wallet and keys and etc. to keep my pockets clear.

Looking forward to hearing how the "Kangaroo" works out ...
 
Lak ...

Never heard of the Browning BDM before, but looks pretty cool:

976595631-1.jpg


An interesting post about it

It looiks nice. I'm beginning to realize that thinness is possibly more important than height or wide for concealability.

Maybe I can find one at the next big gun show.
 
BTW -- the empty chamber I carry is not below the hammer -- I know that's safe with modern revolvers and hammer blocks. It's actually the first chamber in line. So if you drew my gun and pulled the trigger it would *click*.
Click to expand...
This sort of sounds a lot like Barny keeping his bullet in his shirt pocket until he's ready to use it. :)

What you have done is delay (however slightly) your first (and maybe most critical) shot--at close range, that could be fatal. You've also reduced the capacity of what is already reduced capacity weapon (five-shot revolver) by 20% for no reason. Those two together can make a pretty "big deal."
 
JC ... *sigh*. If you can't see the difference in presentation speed/capacity between carrying a single loose round in a buttoned breast pocket and carrying 4 loaded in the cylinder ... I'm afraid I can't help you.

I will try again with the reason for carrying the first chamber empty.

With all chambers full, when trigger gets pulled for any reason (caught on a loose seam, something that's pulled loose on the holster, etc.) the gun goes boom, and the bullet goes out in uncontrolled fashion. My chance of having to use a firearm for protection is very slim, but by carrying it I have to constantly holster/unholster/conceal the weapon on a daily basis. While doing this once or a hundred times poses virtually no risk, over the course of several thousand times the risk increases to the point it at least becomes a possibility to be kept in mind.

And while I love revolvers, the long trigger pull is the only safety. It's a sufficient safety for most purposes, but when carrying deeply concealed I just don't feel it's enough. My life, my choice.

As for speed of the first shot ... there are always things to contend with and plan your presentation around. Safety's to disengage, thumb snaps to pull up, etc. There's no serious loss of time having to click on an empty chamber. Like I said, I practice it all the time.

The loss of a round is a big problem, but still better than carrying nothing.

And if you think it's impossible to accidentally shoot yourself, take a look at this article about Glocks. (to the rest of you out there I apologize for the rabid anti-gun slant of this article, but the facts about the accidental shootings appear to be correct. It's important for all of us to educate beginning shooters in matters of safety, even if it means posting annoying articles -- and that is a responsibility I will not shirk!).
 
The point is that it makes about as sense to carry a modern DA revolver with an empty chamber as it does to keep your ammo in shirt pocket and load it when you need--strictly differing degrees of foolishness.

The Glock design, with its relatively short and light trigger stroke, is very prone to operator error. There's a world of difference between a revolver (longer, stiffer trigger stroke, hammer and cylinder moving, etc.) and a Glock.

Sure, there is a certainly element risk in carrying any weapon, but a modern DA revolver is just about as benign as you can get with any weapon--and I doubt if keeping a chamber empty really, truly reduced the chance of AD. Anyway, it's your decision so go for it.
 
Anyway, it's your decision so go for it.
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Thank you sir.

I really do realize there is a HUGE difference between a glock and a modern DA revolver, both in the weight of trigger pull necessary and the length of trigger pull. Nonetheless, it's the same thing -- one trigger pull, one bang. And yeah -- there are cops and others who have shot themselves holstering a "modern" da revolver. I'm sure it's less common than the glock, but I have heard stories of it happening.

No round in the first chamber -- zero chance of accidental discharge from trigger getting snagged.

Round in first chamber -- some chance, perhaps negligible but there, of an accidental discharge from trigger getting snagged.

Is it worth losing 1 out of 5 rounds to avoid a very slight possibility? I've thought about it a lot, and this is the answer for me based on the threat level I live in.

If I'm going downtown to a late show, I load all 5 and often put a speedloader in my pocket (or else carry my 9mm auto). For normal trips around my suburban area -- 4 is fine.
 
First thing first

You must dress around your gun. the gun does not dress around you. If you are going to carry any type of IWB (pagerpal or smartcarry or any other IWB) you need to have at least one size bigger in your pants. If your pants are to tight you will print everytime. here is a pic with my smartcarry and a taurus P145 Mil pro. This is not a small gun but the same size as your thunder 9.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img_viewer_framed.php?g=xdmk90wi.jpg

You will notice that it hides well. And the Kahr hides very well and is very safe in a Smartcarry. I carry one of those also.


steve :D
 
Personally, I have found pocket carry to be much less of a lifestyle change than any other carry method. Significantly less change than strapping a gun over your pee-pee every morning, IMO. And you can walk through a sticky situation with with your gun in your hand without alerting anyone to it's presence. With a good pocket holster the triggerguard stays covered.

And yeah -- there are cops and others who have shot themselves holstering a "modern" da revolver.
Click to expand...

Put a gun in a holster with your finger on the trigger and that's bound to happen. You don't seem like the type of guy who would do that. I'll admit I had a bit of the heebie-jeebies carrying a gun without an external safety when I started carrying, but for me it wore off after a few months.

That said, I realize although it works for me, it won't necessarily work for you.

I have to wonder- have you tried ankle holsters? Or the IWB holsters that allow you to tuck in a shirt over them? Bellyband, maybe?
 
I can't imagine having to carry in the 12 o clock position. I can't even carry sob either. It is just too darn uncomfortable. If I was standing all day, it wouldn't be an issue. I have to balance my carry with something that is going to be comfortable sitting or standing. For me, that only leaves strong side carry at the 3 o clock position. I carry a Glock 26 without a holster stuffed up to the grip. I then tuck in my shirt around it and fold the remaining over the grip. I always wear a belt anyways so I tighten it to hold the gun snug. It does not show at all and is comfortable to carry for extended periods of time. It offers quick access, good concealability, and doesn't endanger anything other than my own arse! :eek: I know you will only carry something with a safety so one of those added trigger safeties would do the trick.
 
I have a question for the Kahr owners.

I have been considering getting one of the polymer Kahrs in either 9mm or .40 S&W. They advertise how Glocks are like blocks compared to them. Are they that much smaller? I have heard good thing about them in general. I don't want to deal with the weight of the steel frames. Thanks for any input you guys might be able to give me.
 
Garand

Your way of carrying a revolver with the first round an empty chamber is IMHO, and you know what they say about opinions, nuts. I just don't know, I am just stunned, whatever...I am... I don't know, ...I don't think I want to know any more, sorry I ...sorry.
 
Wayne ...
I haven't tried a bellyband, but I suppose that will be next on my list of holsters. Dang -- wish I was rich!

I bought a cheap (probably a mistake, but wanted to try the concept) ankle holster and just felt like I couldn't get to the gun in time to do anything worthwhile. A lot of people are flaming because of my single empty chamber, but I can get that gun out and get a round off in that manner long before I can fire from a fully loaded gun in an ankle holster. I know people who use them regularly, but not for me.

Pocket holsters are great -- just not for me. Definitely a good way to carry.

You are correct -- I'm very careful with finger placement and have shot in competitions where I could get disqualified for putting a finger in the guard at the wrong moment. I've also holstered/unholstered many different weapons in many different holsters over the years and have yet to accidentally pull the trigger on an empty gun, much less have an ND. Probably being overprotective, but I just keep thinking about those thousands of times of removing the weapon and putting it away and reholstering it over the years -- and just once to get distracted in the wrong way (AND have a lot of bad luck, of cours) and it could happen.

Thanks for the post!

Stolivar ...
Thanks for the pictures! With your dark pants I can't tell you're carrying at all. Looks like you are also using the smart carry down your thigh rather than down the middle, which is what I seem to like the best.

I should buy better clothes for concealment ... but I'm not that committed yet. The snubby conceals fine with what I've got, just obvious problems with capacity (even when fully loaded).

Marano ...
May I suggest prozac? Why do you care if I have 4 shots or 5. If I choose to drive around my truck with the seatbelt on AND wear a motorcycle helmet as well (which I don't, but safety wise it may be comparable) what do you care?

I'm stil one of y'all. Even if I switch to a smaller .380 (or any other smaller weapon that fits my needs) I'm still going armed.
 
Your Right.

How you do what you do is up to you...and you are still one of us...thats what makes the world go round. Be Safe, Marano
 
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