PA State Troopers switched to SIG for safety

No amount of training is going to cure the problems of fatigue. Yesterday I missed an exit on a road that I was very familiar with. I was tired and thinking of other things at the time.

The Troopers could practice and train weekly, but when a person is exhausted from driving all day or from working the grave yard shift no amount of training will stop mistakes.
 
Of course if you adhere to all safety rules, a Glock is safe. The incident described is criminally negligent, if it is an accident.

But I'm going to 100% agree with this:
"Personally, compared to other pistols, having to pull the trigger as part of the disassembly procedure is a design defect."

It just has to be acknowledged. The procedure for disassembly requires you to break one of the rules of safe gun handling. This is simply not a good design choice.

In a vintage gun I'd be okay with it, but in a modern design, not really.
 
I transitioned our dept (130 officers) to Glocks in 1995, training initiated, to my knowledge (now retired) no negligent discharges have resulted during cleaning pistols. Training.....,,,,no CONTINUAL training should be conducted with all LE weapons, and yes there are officers who resist any type of firearms and personal defense training....they are often the cause of injury to other officers during violent ( but not necessarily shooting) confrontations.
 
The article outlined other accidental discharges besides the one with the wife and in any event the story is suspicious.

That event is given as the principal motivation for the switch.

That one example is bad and there are other examples sited.

One officer left his pistol within access of his 4 year old son who then shot himself. Another officer shot himself in the leg. And lastly another officer had a discharge in his barracks. These are all examples of breaking the fundamental rules of gun safety, which you yourself say should be easy:

How many of the Cub Scouts would point the Glock at someone during the pull the trigger phase of disassembly? None and thats because its simple common sense not to point the pistol at someone. In fact, I bet most people would take it a step further and have a dedicated tub of sand for this exercise or do it outside pointed to the ground out of fear an accidental discharge might damage the house.

First off, I disagree with your above assertion. I've taken four pistol cases at SIG Sauer Academy. This doesn't make me special, it just means I've been in courses with both regular civilians and officers with varying degrees of experience. This includes men and women just entering their police academies to those with 30 years on the force. I've seen people inadvertently muzzle themselves numerous times. Once was two officers in their 50s who themselves were instructors for their department. Sitting in a vehicle and drawing their pistols while seated they both muzzled their own legs getting the pistols into action. These were good shooters. If you asked them they knew the basic tenets easily. But they weren't paying attention or had become complacent during the drills. Even seasoned people can make mistakes as you keep repeating, and that's true when it comes to gun safety.

I have a difficult time imagining that the Pennsylvania State Police doesn't have a very good firearms training program. Just because a cop does something foolish with a gun doesn't mean he wasn't properly trained. It just means he disregarded what he was taught.

Having taken courses side by side with police officers, I've talked with them about this. Besides the initial training they receive at the academy and the ammunition they are budget for annual qualification, without an exception every single officer I talked to was paying for that course and the ammo for that course out of his pocket. The police departments in many areas don't have the budget for periodic training; it's often a once and done thing. I've seen officers make mistakes in courses, I've also seen a local officer at the range (an excellent shot btw) take a loaded pistol off the bench, move it the rear for packing, and in the process muzzle his own wife in the abdomen. This man was in his 40s, not a kid. As Ibmikey pointed out, continual training or at least continual reinforcement of safety practices is what's important, and a lot of departments don't do that.

The Troopers could practice and train weekly, but when a person is exhausted from driving all day or from working the grave yard shift no amount of training will stop mistakes.

This is to me a cop out. I get tired too. I've also had a negligent discharge. It was a learning experience to say the least, and it happened with a DA/SA pistol. Because I was maintaining muzzle discipline and I knew my backstop, no one was hurt. Negligent discharges can and do happen, but as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread that's why we have more than one rule of gun safety. Additionally, training helps mitigate this. We have millions of people in this country using similar style pistols. Yes negligent discharge related deaths happen. But they're no where near a plague. I'll also point out that as someone who had a ND, a "safer" trigger system such as DA/SA did nothing for me. I thought the pistol was unloaded. I didn't check. That incident was entirely on my own lack of adherence to check that pistol. The manual of arms did nothing to stop user error.

It's been my experience that in the vast majority of these incidents people fail to check the status of the pistol and the manual of arms wouldn't have stopped the incident from happening.

It just has to be acknowledged. The procedure for disassembly requires you to break one of the rules of safe gun handling. This is simply not a good design choice.

As I stated, I also think other designs that don't require a trigger pull to disassemble to have an advantage there. That said, I don't consider simply pulling a trigger to be breaking one of the four major rules. "Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire." I do dry fire practice almost every day. When I do it, I drop the magazine, check the chamber, repeat the previous step, point it in a direction where I know there aren't people and where I know my backstop would stop a discharge, and begin practice. Triggers can be pressed without resulting in injury or even the discharge of a round.
 
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I had not payed much attention to Sig until I read the article. The Sig P227 TACOPS is really a jaw dropping piece which resembles something you might see in a movie with a modern look. It goes beyond looks with .45 caliber fighting power, competition accuracy and 14 round capacity. Im wondering how it would stand up to H&K.

Placing the Glock and 227 side by side its no contest. Ill take the Sig and wondering how it would stand up against H&K.

My wallet is not full enough to consider the 227, but Im certainly interested.
 
The Sig P227 TACOPS is really a jaw dropping piece which resembles something you might see in a movie with a modern look. It goes beyond looks with .45 caliber fighting power, competition accuracy and 14 round capacity. Im wondering how it would stand up to H&K.

Placing the Glock and 227 side by side its no contest. Ill take the Sig and wondering how it would stand up against H&K.

How is it no contest? To me it looks like SIGs that have been on the market for decades (I agree they're handsome pistols). As people have pointed out to you, the P227 has 10 rd flush fitting mags. The 14 rd mags are extended mags that you might use for backups. The Glock 21, the closest competitor from Glock, has 13 rd flush fitting mags (only 1 less than the extended mags with the P227) with the option for 26 rd extended mags if that's a concern. Both pistols have rails for mounting lights/laser, both pistols have options for different sighting systems.

I've owned about a dozen HKs, a dozen SIGs, and probably 8-10 Glocks. They're all good pistols. None of them are really mind blowing imo and I'd be fine if any of them was my service pistol.
 
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If anything the move to using SIG's is a coverup or a lack of ND enforcement.

READ THE WHOLE THING <--- as Weaponsman frequently states.

The issue is that the PSP doesn't hold officers accountable. At all. It's a leadership failure causing the issue and if the Command chain had been doing it's job right the wife would be alive, baby born, and the trooper living happily ever after, or the next traffic stop gone bad.

The issue is that the rules aren't being enforced, and if you don't do that, you are killing your own employees off. Or their family.

The comparison to the Rangers is extremely valid - going in locked and loaded for live fire is frequent, so is range training. They don't shoot their pregnant wives, children or each other. They don't have ND's. Period. They exercise that form of trigger safety much maligned by officious range safety types, they control when and where their trigger finger is. They follow the rules of safety because they work in close proximity and they know for a fact that they can be shot by a team mates weapons just as easily at they could shoot someone else.

Troopers? Blanket exemption. The Command chain is using taxpayer dollars to implement a bandaid where they need to put an emphasis on responsibility.

How much is this a collective bargaining issue gone bad? Protectionism? It's a political statement about the situation more than an indictment on Glocks. Cops had ND's with revolvers in the day, too. What's missing is the perspective of time and the fact that most people have a deliberate memory loss - if it's not part of the current news cycle it's forgotten. It's EXACTLY how politicians indicted for criminal activity keep getting reelected.

"Life is so complicated we all make mistakes." "The gun safety rules are so complicated we all make mistakes." It doesn't mean it's OK, tho.

The Weaponsman article has an important point - switching to SIG's won't fix the problem. THERE WILL STILL BE ND'S AND IT WON'T GO AWAY UNTIL TROOPERS ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE. No, there is nothing here about SIG vs Glock at all, it's about Command chain failure and a lack of responsibility to their employees and the public. The taxpayer foots the bill for it and nothing is being done to fix the problem.

The Glock SAFE action trigger was designed to work the same as a DA revolver to reduce training costs. Officers then knew not to point the gun and pull the trigger unless they were sure of things. Today they aren't just negligent, they are protected, too.
 
Sig probably thinks pointing their guns at your wife and pulling the trigger is a bad idea too. We can know for sure that this incident wouldn't have happened if the shooter had followed the most basic of firearms safety procedures.

Even the man in the video that you quoted pointed the gun in a relatively safe direction before he fired. Thank God he didn't point it at a child before pulling the trigger on his "empty" gun DA/SA or otherwise.

Anyone with common sense probably thinks pointing their guns at your wife and pulling the trigger is a bad idea too. I don't see anyone saying that he didn't ignored gun safety rules (if it was an accident). Adding an step in the take down process that some feel is dangerous is the issue. I have striker guns that break down the same way. Some manufactures like Sig make a point to eliminate it out of the process. I view anything that may even slightly safer is the better way.

The Glock 40 could have happened with any type of firearm but, it did not. It was a very specific design and handled with negligence right after a proclamation of superiority of the handler.


Edit: Added "Didn't per TunnelRats catch below
 
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I don't see anyone saying that he ignored gun safety rules (if it was an accident).

If it wasn't a murder, then he definitely did. Not pointing your muzzle at other people that aren't a threat is a pretty big safety rule. To be more sympathetic I can also envision a situation where he pointed the pistol at a wall when he was disassembling and pulled the trigger and the bullet went through the wall and struck his wife. That's still negligence because you have to be aware of your back stop. Interior walls are typically tissue paper for bullets. Dry wall and plywood won't stop pistol rounds at all. And finally he should have checked that the pistol was loaded before he pulled the trigger. There were multiple gun safety rules broken.
 
Pointing a pistol at anyone is a total lack of common sense. If you need to be told or trained not to do that maybe you shouldnt own a pistol in the first place. The local Cub Scout pack here doesnt need much instruction in that regard. Muzzles are not pointed at people ever, period, end of discussion.
 
Pointing a pistol at anyone is a total lack of common sense. If you need to be told or trained not to do that maybe you shouldnt own a pistol in the first place.

We'd be short a lot of police officers in that case. In a dynamic environment people can lose track of their muzzle. Saying it happens isn't condoning it, it's accepting the reality that people can make mistakes, a point you made in your initial post. Life isn't always a static range, especially for police officers, and muzzle awareness is something that needs to be practiced and training is critical in this regard. For that matter, people need to understand that what they think might be a barrier in regards to bullets often isn't.

By the way, don't look now but you're basically arguing that the event that prompted the move of the PSP to the SIG P227 from the Glock shouldn't have resulted in that action.
 
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From those I talked to directly in the PSP, that article/incident is a non-factor on why the PSP switched over to Sig. A contributing factor but not THE reason was the Glock frame flex defect a few years back. One thing for sure is the price-per-unit is significantly higher with the Sig P227 over the G21. That is a good indication that the bean counters where not a major influence in the sidearm switch this time around.
 
I see these articles over and over again on all of the gun forums about glocks and lack of safety. Why doesn't glock just add an optional safety kinda like how you can get the shield with or without it? I could only see this as increasing glocks business. People who dont want safeties can still buy their preferred glocks and people who do not buy glocks due to lack of a safety can now buy them. Win win for everyone.
 
I see these articles over and over again on all of the gun forums about glocks and lack of safety. Why doesn't glock just add an optional safety kinda like how you can get the shield with or without it? I could only see this as increasing glocks business. People who dont want safeties can still buy their preferred glocks and people who do not buy glocks due to lack of a safety can now buy them. Win win for everyone.


It's a very good question. If you haven't, I'd suggest reading "Glock: The Rise of America's Gun." It's not only an interesting read if you have an interest in Glocks, but even the industry as a whole.

From reading the book my guess as to why not is that Gaston Glock evolved a lot over the years. He started out really as a nobody and through working with experienced shooters came up with his initial design. Then finding the right people stateside allowed him to develop an impressive marketing team. After a number of years he really had an empire.

Why does it matter? At some point the book describes how Gaston himself changed. I don't know if I'd say fame went to his head, but he came to see his design as one of a kind. The old "Perfection" marketing wasn't just marketing; the book would argue Glock started to believe his own legend (which was made in a large part with marketing). There were reports over many years about negligent discharges, but to Glock it was all user error.

Besides pride and personal belief, I also imagine that it's tricky to offer a design that you've marketed as perfect all these years with a change years after the fact. Yea Glock has made small changes, but adding a manual safety option would sort of fly in the face of all the marketing they've done over the years to convince people their pistols are safe as is.

My dad likes to say that there are three types of car companies. If you have an issue with an American car they'll apologize and maybe get around to changing the model. For a Japanese car they apologize profusely and will do their best to fix the model. For a German car they look at you and ask, "why don't you know how to drive the car properly?" From owning all those cars I've come to believe this too, and I've found the same with gun manufacturers. Now Austria isn't Germany but I feel the attitude is similar. Some gun manufacturers are much more receptive to user requests. I don't believe Glock is one of the more receptive companies.
 
In PA, the troopers have god like status. I have no idea why. I'm retired NYPD living in PA and I think they're pretty much useless. If you call them, be prepared to wait an hour or more for them to arrive. The DA's and judges take their word as gospel. They are without a doubt the most arrogant people I have ever met.

So I can see why the DA didn't prosecute the idiot who killed his wife. A PA trooper blew through a stop sign last year and killed a woman coming home from work. He wasn't on a call. Just didn't feel like he had to stop since he is a trooper. He was found guilty of the stop sign violation, but no criminal charges. Should have been a manslaughter charge.

That said, I believe the pull the trigger to take down a gun is a design flaw. But since PA troopers probably don't pull their weapon more times in a career than I did in a month, I'm not surprised the trooper screwed it up.
 
Anyone who tries to disassemble a pistol without checking if it has a round first, should not be allowed to have a gun.
 
Safeties and law enforcement use does not mix well, hell not just for law enforcement use but for just everyday carry. Safeties belong on hunting rifles and single action autos.
 
It just has to be acknowledged. The procedure for disassembly requires you to break one of the rules of safe gun handling. This is simply not a good design choice.

Which rule are you talking about? Dry firing? That's all it is.
 
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