PA State Troopers switched to SIG for safety

J

johnelmore

New member
I came upon this article with a detailed explanation of PA state troopers switch from Glock to Sig.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=16611

Ive always thought the Glock is unsafe and voiced my opinion here many times. Just like I missed that turn on the highway today someone could accidentally put their finger on the trigger or forget there is a round in the chamber and fire it before its disassembled/clean. No amount of training will stop one of those moments we all have.

The Sig 227R they selected I have to applaud. 15 rounds of .45 stopping power. No excuses with this pistol. The capacity is there, the caliber is there and if this is not enough you really need a rifle.
 
someone could accidentally put their finger on the trigger or forget there is a round in the chamber and fire it before its disassembled/clean. No amount of training will stop one of those moments we all have.
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"I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40." :D
 
when you have to hire lowest common denominators, you have to outfit them with the same reasoning. a Glock is not for ignorant people, and most cops simply aren't gun savvy.
 
His wife, Joanne, 34 years old and 22 weeks or so pregnant, was nonresponsive when first responders arrived, with a single gunshot to the cranium evident. Miller explained that he had been dismantling his gun for cleaning, when he pulled the trigger, and the round he discharged struck JoAnne in the head.
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The man points the gun AT HIS WIFE'S HEAD and pulls the trigger and the consensus is that the GUN isn't safe??? Amazing...

Nothing against Sigs, I love them in fact but I would NEVER point even a Sig at someone's head and pull the trigger unless I planned to kill them.
 
Well that story involving he wife seems a bit suspcious to me in my personal opinion. I dont know anyone who would point a firearm at someone else unless they planned to use it. We all should know about basic safety and I dont believe that incident was as a result of stupidity. It was probably purposeful. I cant imagine pointing a firearm at anyone...loaded or unloaded...unless the plan was to use it.
 
I found it interesting that you post as evidence of Glock's lack of safety an article that then goes on to describe numerous gun handling related incidents with the same department and to describe a seeming double standard when it comes to prosecuting firearms related negligence between Pennsylvania State Troopers and regular residents of the state. The conclusion at the end of that article is that the switch from Glock to SIG will not prevent negligent discharges within that department and it also explains why. I suggest you read the article in its entirety before merely cherry picking the details that support your own opinions.

I cant imagine pointing a firearm at anyone...loaded or unloaded...unless the plan was to use it.
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Because you're assuming that members of law enforcement are well schooled in firearms safety and practice such a thing regularly. If you read the article, you'll learn why that isn't always the case. Someone pointing a gun at the head of a person, his own pregnant wife, pulling the trigger, and then blaming the pistol is a trademark of law enforcement unwilling to be as prosecutorial of their officers as they are of the public. That this example of extreme negligence was one of the principal motivators of the change from Glock to SIG does little to support your sentiments.

Just like I missed that turn on the highway today someone could accidentally put their finger on the trigger or forget there is a round in the chamber and fire it before its disassembled/clean. No amount of training will stop one of those moments we all have.
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Many people both civilian and law enforcement, millions of people in the US today, can use Glocks without shooting their spouses in the head through negligence. One example of that negligence is not a condemnation of an entire design. There are designs that have come out that do not require the trigger to be pulled to disassemble and I do think that's a positive change. But until this department puts a serious effort into gun safety among its officers, I doubt swapping pistols will solve the issue.
 
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TunnelRat said:
Many people both civilian and law enforcement, millions of people in the US today, can use Glocks without shooting their spouses in the head through negligence. One example of that negligence is not a condemnation of an entire design.
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This is why we have four rules for firearms safety, and why the rules are somewhat redundant -- we shouldn't violate any of them, but usually if we manage to break one the other three still prevent a catastrophe.

Lemme see, now -- cleaning gun, pregnant wife in room ...

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET​

I'd say he managed to break all four in (if you'll pardon the expression) one shot.
 
the P227 is 10 round capacity not 15, was probably a typo but thought I would correct anyways :p I like the Sig and the Glock. I don't think switching will make a difference for people like the guy in the article. He did not unload his weapon before disassembly. Poor training is the cause and not the inanimate object.
 
"I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40."
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That one just never gets old. :) Glad no one was seriously hurt though.

I like DA/SA with decockers for carry over a striker gun. Having said that I have carried my striker fired guns from time to time and will likely do more in the future. No way to tell one way or the other if this accident (if it really was) would have or not have happened if the gun was a DA/SA model vs a striker gun that needs a trigger pull to disassemble. Sig thinks it's an issue and points to the fact the 320 deletes this step.
 
That one just never gets old. Glad no one was seriously hurt though.

I like DA/SA with decockers for carry over a striker gun. Having said that I have carried my striker fired guns from time to time and will likely do more in the future. No way to tell one way or the other if this accident (if it really was) would have or not have happened if the gun was a DA/SA model vs a striker gun that needs a trigger pull to disassemble. Sig thinks it's an issue and points to the fact the 320 deletes this step.
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Sig probably thinks pointing their guns at your wife and pulling the trigger is a bad idea too. We can know for sure that this incident wouldn't have happened if the shooter had followed the most basic of firearms safety procedures.

Even the man in the video that you quoted pointed the gun in a relatively safe direction before he fired. Thank God he didn't point it at a child before pulling the trigger on his "empty" gun DA/SA or otherwise.
 
Good gawd. Will the stupidity ever end? If someone is uncomfortable with a pistol w/o a manual safety, that's one thing. It's a completely different thing if someone points said gun at a person and pulls the trigger. What kind of moron blames the gun for that???!
 
...someone could accidentally put their finger on the trigger or forget there is a round in the chamber and fire it ...
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If someone is uncomfortable with a pistol w/o a manual safety, that's one thing.
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The P227R that they switched to does not have a manual safety.
...15 rounds of .45 stopping power...
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Capacity of the P227R is 10.
 
Personally, compared to other pistols, having to pull the trigger as part of the disassembly procedure is a design defect.

Yes, I understand all about gun safety, checking the chamber, etc. But, every other manufacturer lets you disassemble the gun by pulling the slide to full open and then simply flipping a lever up or down.

Pulling the trigger is not part of disassembly for SIG, FN, HK, and a number of other manufacturers. That is one area of the Glock design that should be updated as it is NOT the safest disassembly sequence.
 
I'm not a fan of Glock pistols myself, I Just don't shoot them well. But I shoot everything else pretty well, including my new EDC, a Walther PPQ M2, which is the same firing and disassembly procedures as the Glock.
The problem is NOT this pistol design, the problem is poor LEO training combined with a superiority complex expressed by many Officers who actually think they are well trained. There not, in most cases they are barely trained, and the problem is compounded when people barely trained in gun handling attempt to handle guns in high stress situation.
 
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^ this wasn't even high stress, at least according to the story in the article.

buckhorn_cortez said:
Yes, I understand all about gun safety, checking the chamber, etc.
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Is part of that "etc" making sure you don't point a pistol in the direction of your pregnant wife's head? I hope so. Many of the designs you mention came after the Glock. I'm not sure what it would take to update the current Glock design. It is a factor the end user needs to be aware of. Still I think ignoring the gross negligence demonstrated here in lieu of looking at the manual of arms is a mistake.
 
I'm curious if any of of the Glock naysayers "again I'm not a Glock guy" have any problem with the disassembly of the 1911 as originally designed?

1. No de-cocker, so, if you've checked the chamber the hammer is cocked.
2. I've yet to figure out how too depress the spring cap and rotate the barrel bushing without passing my hand across the muzzle.
3. Racking the "now" de-compressed slide back to take down cut out is pretty difficult with the hammer down meaning most 1911 guys I know "been shooting them for 20 years now" perform all of these steps with the hammer cocked.

Yet miraculously... In 20 years... I've managed to never put a .45 ACP through my hand? Hmm... Maybe there really is something to this manual of arms thing?

Tack
 
The article outlined other accidental discharges besides the one with the wife and in any event the story is suspicious. Its a bad example. Lets say I got a young group of Cub Scouts together and handed them a Glock to clean. Lets say I provided no instructions on safety and simply demonstrated to them once how to disassemble it. How many of the Cub Scouts would point the Glock at someone during the pull the trigger phase of disassembly? None and thats because its simple common sense not to point the pistol at someone. In fact, I bet most people would take it a step further and have a dedicated tub of sand for this exercise or do it outside pointed to the ground out of fear an accidental discharge might damage the house.

That one example is bad and there are other examples sited.
 
As a group of people state-sanctioned to OC all over the US, and given the vast implications of using a firearm, I am really surprised that police officers are given as little training and range time as is suggested on here.

Unholstering in the course of duty may never happen in a police officer's career but given what it means if it does, it is too important to address and prepare for in a minimal way.

Meanwhile, some of the harrowing stories in this thread alone show that the dangers of unfamiliarity or lack of competence are not limited to the course of officers' duties. :(
 
Because you're assuming that members of law enforcement are well schooled in firearms safety....
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I have a difficult time imagining that the Pennsylvania State Police doesn't have a very good firearms training program. Just because a cop does something foolish with a gun doesn't mean he wasn't properly trained. It just means he disregarded what he was taught.
 
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