+P vs. not: Which handguns
- Thread starter TXAZ
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Really? Guess they really need to change that equation to work with your logic. Kinetic energy = 1/2 X mass X velocity^2. The multiplication of 1/2 directly effects both mass and velocity, but squaring is only done on velocity. That means velocity has more affect on energy.
Plug in the equation with both at 2, then do each with a value of 4. Both at 2, energy is 4. Mass at 4 equals energy at 8. Velocity at 4 equals energy at 16. If you are punching holes in paper, I agree... +P isn’t doing much. But if you are putting your life on the line, I’d go with more energy.
But if that is the case, why do people still look down at .380? Or how come 9mm has become supreme, and not .45 or .40 (.45 is still liked, a lot for it being subsonic out of the gate; great suppressor cartridge)? Sorry, but bullet technology is only part of getting optimal performance. Velocity of the same bullet exponentially increases energy. So, having two 124 grain bullets... one going 1150 FPS and another going 1220 FPS (muzzle velocity), you will get better performance out of the one moving 1220 FPS (rate differences of Speer Gold Dot, standard pressure over +P). Muzzle energy of the standard pressure is 364 ft/lbs, +P is 410 ft/lbs. That is about a 13% increase in energy.
seeker_two
New member
Kinetic energy is only part of the story. If the bullet doesn't do its job, then the energy is wasted. A standard-pressure JHP that expands well is more useful than a +P round that doesn't expand. Energy is just what the bullet uses to do its job.
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Not the point I was making... seeker_two gave a pretty good explanation.
To say a +P/velocity doesn’t matter is like saying there was no real need for S&W to design the .357 Magnum.
The place your projectile hits? Is far more important than what you hit it with.
One of my students (ATM repair crew) shot a person advancing on him, broken pint glass in his hand, the jagged part facing out. From 6' away. The .38 Special, 158g Semi-Wadcutter, lead, non-hollow point, entered the sternum, struck the heart, found on the gurney at the hospital. Threw and threw hit.
The effect, from the view of witnesses, instant stop! half a step back. Vertical collapse. Not a fallback, more of a crumble. No pulse at the scene pronounced at the hospital.
One of my students (ATM repair crew) shot a person advancing on him, broken pint glass in his hand, the jagged part facing out. From 6' away. The .38 Special, 158g Semi-Wadcutter, lead, non-hollow point, entered the sternum, struck the heart, found on the gurney at the hospital. Threw and threw hit.
The effect, from the view of witnesses, instant stop! half a step back. Vertical collapse. Not a fallback, more of a crumble. No pulse at the scene pronounced at the hospital.
Not arguing results of a shooting that I’m not familiar with... however, that doesn’t make your statement about velocity correct. People have been killed with .22s, does that mean 9mm is overkill?
You stated that increasing velocity makes no sense. I replied with a basic formula that pretty much shows that velocity is the one part of the energy equation that changes over the course of the bullet’s path (mass doesn’t change as heads down range, at least until it hits something). Could you get by with a 158 grain SWC, going about 750 FPS? Of course you can. However, that doesn’t mean there is no reason not to increase velocity with +P loads... and it doesn’t just “possibly damage your gun.”
WheelGunMan
New member
I believe whole premise for increasing velocity is to allow the bullet to achieve fuller expansion thus creating more hydraulic displacement. I think it's referred to the venturi effect.
Does your idea of the Venturi effect match the description of the Venturi effect at the link below?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect
WheelGunMan
New member
Yes..it deals with fluid dynamics.
HK USP/USPC.. For +p/+p+
WheelGunMan
New member
To take that a step further...ammo such as ARX has taken a standard pressure .38 Special round incorporating their copper/polymer injection molded non expanding bullet of only 77 grains and are pushing it out of a short barrel snub with velocities approaching 1100 fps...and penetrating into ballistic gel to depths within FBI protocols producing equivalent wound channels of a 125 grain JHP .38+p. I think they're making great strides in ammo technology.
Cosmodragoon
New member
Velocity aids in expansion. While bullet technology has improved over the years, low velocity can still be a problem. This is part of why .380 and .38 special are considered marginal for self defense by some people. This can also be a problem for .45 acp but the bullets are wide and heavy enough that few people consider it marginal. Personally, I think any gun is better than no gun. All of these rounds can be effective for self defense. Some are better than others. You should judge the degree for yourself.
Numbers on a screen are one thing. There is a reason that physics class comes with a lab. You should have an intuitive understanding of what your handgun actually does. You can have fun developing that by shooting different kinds of media. Save up your recyclables for a while so you can fill them with water, mud, sand, etc. Keep an eye out for expired canned goods or food that has gotten past prime. Plan a few weeks out and have fun. Watch what happens to the things you shoot. (Just be sure to use eye protection, stand at a safe distance, and clean up when you are done.) It can be a nice break from paper targets and you can learn a lot.
Another thing you can do with a lot less preparation is to go look up Paul Harrell on YouTube. He has a lot of caliber comparison videos and he often shoots a "meat target" that is made to simulate a body. It isn't perfect but it's a very nice compliment to what you can learn from gel tests.
Well, you won't see any +p ammo go through my Luger P.08, Mauser C96 Bolo, or my Walther P.38, period. And they are certainly full size...
There are two basic issues with "+p" ammo, first is that for a long time, there was no standard for what +p was. Any and everything above the standard pressure is +p, and it could be 3%, or 15% (what I believe the current standard for +p is) or it could be 50%
eek, and the second part of the issue is whether or not the ammo you are shooting actually conforms to the +p standard. Not all does.I wouldn't risk any pistol made before the 1970s by using +p in it.
If the gun in question is currently manufactured, as the maker. If they say NAY, then Nay it should be.
I think a few posters are missing my point. +p 9mm, gives more recoil, more bang (possibly more flash?) None of those things (IMO) help you in a gunfight.
The shooting I described, was between one of my students, and a criminal.
The witnesses were two young Ladies, at a bus stop, waiting for a Bus, which was not there at this time.
What was interesting to me, was a conversation with an Autopsy Surgeon.
He said the skin on the impact point, has the bullet going easily through the skin, it has flesh and bone behind it, a good base the bullet that is.
But the bullet leaving the body, with only a shirt behind it, a standing subject.
Has this amazing material, the human skin, which can stretch many inches, therefore slowing down the exiting projectile. Depending on the forward profile of the bullet.
That was a one on one conversation, I can not prove that.
The shooting I described, was between one of my students, and a criminal.
The witnesses were two young Ladies, at a bus stop, waiting for a Bus, which was not there at this time.
What was interesting to me, was a conversation with an Autopsy Surgeon.
He said the skin on the impact point, has the bullet going easily through the skin, it has flesh and bone behind it, a good base the bullet that is.
But the bullet leaving the body, with only a shirt behind it, a standing subject.
Has this amazing material, the human skin, which can stretch many inches, therefore slowing down the exiting projectile. Depending on the forward profile of the bullet.
That was a one on one conversation, I can not prove that.
Its a little difficult to grasp, the way you described it, but it makes perfect sense. Skin at the entry wound has tissue behind it, and no where to go to stretch, so the bullet punctures it easily.
Skin at the exit wound has nothing (but a shirt) to hold it against the bullet's passage, so it stretches and tears (often) as the bullet exits through it.
This can easily be seen with larger, torn exit wounds, even when a non-expanding type bullet was the cause.
If you look at what handgun bullets actually do, you can see there are "plateau" levels, where velocity makes a noticeable difference in effectiveness.
+p ammo is intended to partially bridge the gap between the level of a cartridge, and the higher level of another. What is does, in effect is get you part way there. Whether or not getting part way there produces the same effect as the next higher level of performance varies.
Some think it matters, some think it doesn't. The people who are "properly shot" aren't talking, and even if they did, each case is an individual, with many, many factors involved, so other than some generalities, little specifically useful can be gained.
Skin at the exit wound has nothing (but a shirt) to hold it against the bullet's passage, so it stretches and tears (often) as the bullet exits through it.
This can easily be seen with larger, torn exit wounds, even when a non-expanding type bullet was the cause.
If you look at what handgun bullets actually do, you can see there are "plateau" levels, where velocity makes a noticeable difference in effectiveness.
+p ammo is intended to partially bridge the gap between the level of a cartridge, and the higher level of another. What is does, in effect is get you part way there. Whether or not getting part way there produces the same effect as the next higher level of performance varies.
Some think it matters, some think it doesn't. The people who are "properly shot" aren't talking, and even if they did, each case is an individual, with many, many factors involved, so other than some generalities, little specifically useful can be gained.
Two reasons I disagree with that...
First, that is what practice helps with. If that logic was sound, we all would be carrying .22s.
Second, with adrenaline, you aren’t going to notice the difference in recoil. Hell, you might not even notice the recoil. 9mm +P verses standard pressure isn’t .38 verses .500 Magnum.
+P vs not: Which handguns
In the last 20 posts, there have been only 2 that have mentioned a specific firearm and whether or not it is +p rated (you know, the topic). That's more than 1/2 the posts on this thread.
Do any of those that are discussing the merits of +p vs not have a handgun that falls into either[one or the other] category? Please, tell us about it.
In the last 20 posts, there have been only 2 that have mentioned a specific firearm and whether or not it is +p rated (you know, the topic). That's more than 1/2 the posts on this thread.
Do any of those that are discussing the merits of +p vs not have a handgun that falls into either[one or the other] category? Please, tell us about it.
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Kimber Micro 9 manual page 67
Although this Kimber firearm is capable of functioning with +P ammunition in the appropriate caliber for the firearm, a steady diet of +P ammunition may affect the wear characteristics, shorten the life and endurance of your firearm, and necessitate more frequent maintenance and replacement of parts.
My Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 special had a tag on it that said +P rated. I think that was for the 38 version.
David
Although this Kimber firearm is capable of functioning with +P ammunition in the appropriate caliber for the firearm, a steady diet of +P ammunition may affect the wear characteristics, shorten the life and endurance of your firearm, and necessitate more frequent maintenance and replacement of parts.
My Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 special had a tag on it that said +P rated. I think that was for the 38 version.
David
Weil,.. they kind of have to be one, or the other...
Don't they??
I do have one that, while not officially +p rated, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot with +p or even +p+ 9mm Luger ammo.
My T/C Contender!!
6" 9mm Luger barrel.About as far from modern service class semi autos as one can get, but still a 9mm Luger and about as stout as it gets in that caliber.
While it may seem otherwise these days, the entire shooting world is not made up of just "combat Tupperware".
I realize this doesn't really address the OP's intent, and I wish I could give him a list, but its not that simple. With any currently made pistol, ask the maker. With those out of production, there's no "authority" to ask, and therefore, probably best not to chance problems by shooting +p ammo.