+P ? No thanks.
- Thread starter Tarcante
- Start date
In recent times I’ve been reading stuff about reloading thru my gun show acquired Speer manual, 1999 version. The Speer manual I’ve been using is an older version dated from the 80s.
Thing about 38 Special it’s a potentially hazardous round for the user, stuck bullet in barrel. Some history and stuff about the 38 Special is said to give an explanation.
38 Special was originally a black powder round using a lead bullet. Sometime in the 60’s the jacketed bullet came into the marketplace. The jacketed bullet has more friction going down the barrel of a 38 Special with a max pressure of 17K psi. +P is 20K psi. The smokeless powder load data for the 38 is a specific load only, no range/variance, makered DNR (do not reduce).
Looking back on my notes and loaded ammo I never loaded rounds in 38 Special or anywhere near 38 Special. I use 357 magnum brass only and load for 38 +P or 357 using a fast power, 700X. This powder does not give optimum results for performance but I like it.
700X gives a limited range of bullet weight range for 9mm and 357 but is useful for the entire spectrum of bullet weights for the 45auto.
Thing about 38 Special it’s a potentially hazardous round for the user, stuck bullet in barrel. Some history and stuff about the 38 Special is said to give an explanation.
38 Special was originally a black powder round using a lead bullet. Sometime in the 60’s the jacketed bullet came into the marketplace. The jacketed bullet has more friction going down the barrel of a 38 Special with a max pressure of 17K psi. +P is 20K psi. The smokeless powder load data for the 38 is a specific load only, no range/variance, makered DNR (do not reduce).
Looking back on my notes and loaded ammo I never loaded rounds in 38 Special or anywhere near 38 Special. I use 357 magnum brass only and load for 38 +P or 357 using a fast power, 700X. This powder does not give optimum results for performance but I like it.
700X gives a limited range of bullet weight range for 9mm and 357 but is useful for the entire spectrum of bullet weights for the 45auto.
Cheapshooter
New member
Tarrant, don't fear the +P in your revolver. It was made for it.
Never mine the hyperbole of the weak and lame 38 Special, or reclaims of +P being nothing but a minute increase in an ineffective round.
The +P ammo of major manufactures will be fine, and probably the best choice for self defense use. You can always practice with standard loads anyway.
Only when you move to the boutique ammo makers that use the +P, or +P+ rating as advertising hype to make people think they are making a more powerful gun out of what they have might there be a problem. Most likely not though because they are probably loading their "hot" ammo to the very upper limits of the SAAMI standards. Unlike the major manufactures who leave a small margin of error for their loads.
The most important thing is that you find an ammo that works well in your particular firearm, and that you can shoot well with.
All of the Mall Ninjas, and world savers can have all the super ultra performance +++++P Magnum devistator ammo in the world. But if an individual can't hit anything with it reliably, it is useless.
Use the best ammo you can shoot well with.
My personal choice through a lot of research of ballistic gel tests, and my own accuracy tests for carry in my Ruger LCR used for Winter coat pocket carry......Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P
Never mine the hyperbole of the weak and lame 38 Special, or reclaims of +P being nothing but a minute increase in an ineffective round.
The +P ammo of major manufactures will be fine, and probably the best choice for self defense use. You can always practice with standard loads anyway.
Only when you move to the boutique ammo makers that use the +P, or +P+ rating as advertising hype to make people think they are making a more powerful gun out of what they have might there be a problem. Most likely not though because they are probably loading their "hot" ammo to the very upper limits of the SAAMI standards. Unlike the major manufactures who leave a small margin of error for their loads.
The most important thing is that you find an ammo that works well in your particular firearm, and that you can shoot well with.
All of the Mall Ninjas, and world savers can have all the super ultra performance +++++P Magnum devistator ammo in the world. But if an individual can't hit anything with it reliably, it is useless.
Use the best ammo you can shoot well with.
My personal choice through a lot of research of ballistic gel tests, and my own accuracy tests for carry in my Ruger LCR used for Winter coat pocket carry......Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
158gr LSWCHP won't expand when fired from a snubby, even the +P load.
If you don't want +P then the next best load for a snubbie is 148gr lead wadcutter. I prefer Fiocchi as I've tested them and the bullets are hardened lead and don't deform. Another good load is Black Hills, which has a photo of their wadcutter load that was fired into gelatin.
The wadcutter shape is the most efficient for crushing and cutting soft tissues.
If you don't want +P then the next best load for a snubbie is 148gr lead wadcutter. I prefer Fiocchi as I've tested them and the bullets are hardened lead and don't deform. Another good load is Black Hills, which has a photo of their wadcutter load that was fired into gelatin.
The wadcutter shape is the most efficient for crushing and cutting soft tissues.
don't buy everything you hear on the internet.
this load http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparisonof9x18mmMakarovetc.htm, as well as a few other have shown your assessment to be untrue.
Derbel McDillet
Moderator
The bullets in the link you provided were fired into wet newspaper and not properly prepared and calibrated type 250A ordnance gelatin, nor gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth.
I think the reason the gun store guys went for the +p is due to the more is better attitude that has such a tight grasp on the shooting industry.
Look at all the uber magnums out there today. 338 Lapua? Seriously? Plan on taking out elephants at a mile and a half?
The short 1-7/8" barrel of the S&W snubbies leads to lower muzzle velocities. It's common to see speeds drop by 200 fps or more when compared to 4" guns. Getting that wee bit of extra velocity out of the +p loads tends to bring a bit of that lost velocity back.
The +p that I've run out of my 642 tend to bark a wee bit more but the Airweight doesn't have the mass to hold itself down. It does start to sting after a few of those. While it isn't painful it does tend to get uncomfortable.
The +p debate (as seen here) is long and windy. In my opinion, at common defensive shooting range the extra +p velocity isn't critical and neither is the most accurate ammo. If you can hit a 6" circle at 15 yards you will be fine for all but the most extreme defensive situations.
Look at all the uber magnums out there today. 338 Lapua? Seriously? Plan on taking out elephants at a mile and a half?
The short 1-7/8" barrel of the S&W snubbies leads to lower muzzle velocities. It's common to see speeds drop by 200 fps or more when compared to 4" guns. Getting that wee bit of extra velocity out of the +p loads tends to bring a bit of that lost velocity back.
The +p that I've run out of my 642 tend to bark a wee bit more but the Airweight doesn't have the mass to hold itself down. It does start to sting after a few of those. While it isn't painful it does tend to get uncomfortable.
The +p debate (as seen here) is long and windy. In my opinion, at common defensive shooting range the extra +p velocity isn't critical and neither is the most accurate ammo. If you can hit a 6" circle at 15 yards you will be fine for all but the most extreme defensive situations.
Cheapshooter
New member
Then maybe you will believe this one shot with Ruger LCR.
12.5" of penetration, and .641 expansion.
Testing Protocol:
- See more at: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/...ial-p-158-grain-lhp.html#sthash.bRYwIvca.dpuf
Other tests show less expansion, and even over penetration. So the conclusion could be made that the FBI load does expand from a snubbie, but not reliably. It is an old design, and has been exceeded by modern bonded JHP bullets in ammunition loaded to maximize the short barrel of a snubbie.
Like this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY
12.5" of penetration, and .641 expansion.
Testing Protocol:
- See more at: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/...ial-p-158-grain-lhp.html#sthash.bRYwIvca.dpuf
But that would then be the same as a LSWCHP.
Other tests show less expansion, and even over penetration. So the conclusion could be made that the FBI load does expand from a snubbie, but not reliably. It is an old design, and has been exceeded by modern bonded JHP bullets in ammunition loaded to maximize the short barrel of a snubbie.
Like this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY
Wow, a lot of divergent information in this thread.
#1 - short barrels need fast-burning powder (if you reload)
#2 - hollow points need adequate velocity to expand properly
#3 - a lot of people are overly sensitive to recoil
My conclusion - practice with normal loads, self-defense ranges are less than 5 yards, the difference will be nil at that range with hardcore loads, screw the pain your hands when your life is on the line.
Also, while wadcutters may not expand much, that means that they will penetrate a little more, and they cause much more tissue damage than round nose ammo, or a hollow point that doesn't expand.
My choice for .38 special is 158 grain hollow points or wadcutters at 800 FPS. That is a little hotter than standard loads in short barrels, maybe to +P range.
But this is why I am a .45 ACP fan, mild loads at 830 fps for 230 grain. Even with hardball, these loads are hip bone breakers and will leave almost a 1/4" hole through and though with no bone interference. Two holes bleed out more than one.
#1 - short barrels need fast-burning powder (if you reload)
#2 - hollow points need adequate velocity to expand properly
#3 - a lot of people are overly sensitive to recoil
My conclusion - practice with normal loads, self-defense ranges are less than 5 yards, the difference will be nil at that range with hardcore loads, screw the pain your hands when your life is on the line.
Also, while wadcutters may not expand much, that means that they will penetrate a little more, and they cause much more tissue damage than round nose ammo, or a hollow point that doesn't expand.
My choice for .38 special is 158 grain hollow points or wadcutters at 800 FPS. That is a little hotter than standard loads in short barrels, maybe to +P range.
But this is why I am a .45 ACP fan, mild loads at 830 fps for 230 grain. Even with hardball, these loads are hip bone breakers and will leave almost a 1/4" hole through and though with no bone interference. Two holes bleed out more than one.
over-penetration form a 38spl....c'mon guys, get real. if you do not want +p for whatever reason, my wife uses the hornaday standard pressure 110gr critical defense FTX. I have tested several standard 38spl loadings for her to find one that would expand every time from her 1.9" inch barrel, and this was the clear winner. DO NOT go with the hydrashock or hydrashck "low-recoil", they expand less than 60% of the time from her snubbie. obviously I haven't tested ALL of the standard 38 loadings, but these hornadays are very consistent, nice recoil and accuracy and a great price. over-penetration would only be a concern if using a FMJ or a non HP'd wadcutter.
good luck, find a load that your most accurate with and don't sweat the "over" stuff. its all going to over-penetrate if your talking about missing you target
good luck, find a load that your most accurate with and don't sweat the "over" stuff. its all going to over-penetrate if your talking about missing you target
Cheapshooter
New member
Yes, sorta.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4
Kinda.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VODX8qMO-Mo
And yes, for real.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=fMCi_b5cmAQ
i am not saying that it doesn't over-penetrate....but tell me a pistol round that doesn't "over-penetrate" then. unless you are using a hollow-point that actually works, all calibers of pistols "over-penetrate". please show me where that is actually a problem when hitting your intended target and when its not a problem when missing your target. frangible practice ammo excluded of course. you shoot any pistol round at a interior house wall.....its going right through it, except maybe a glaser, but even tests of that show it still penetrates two walls.
i still haven't seen the case where someone shot an intruder and hit him, and the bullet went through the bad guy and killed an innocent bystander.
i still haven't seen the case where someone shot an intruder and hit him, and the bullet went through the bad guy and killed an innocent bystander.
I don't quite understand the chicken little attitude of "The sky is falling" when talking about using (+P) .38 SPL ammo in certain revolvers e.g. S&W M10, M36 and such. You are not going to ruin a M10 shooting (+P) ammo through it, the M10 and other S&W K frames are quite robust and a great vehicle for the .38 SPL. My father shot and used Super Vel .38 SPL in S&W M60 no dash with no ill effects. I now have that revolver and its still in very servicable condition even after I stuffed some (+P) loads down it.
Now if you don't want (+P) because your using a light weight revolver and ae worried about follow up shots then I understand. Here are some more good reading on the .38 SPL.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...cs/107972-some-38-special-velocity-tests.html
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/118121-three-38-special-handloads.html
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/118121-three-38-special-handloads.html
Now if you don't want (+P) because your using a light weight revolver and ae worried about follow up shots then I understand. Here are some more good reading on the .38 SPL.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...cs/107972-some-38-special-velocity-tests.html
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/118121-three-38-special-handloads.html
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/118121-three-38-special-handloads.html
I'm pretty sure that this observation is incorrect.
First it depends on the lead in the bullet and the velocity of the round. For decades hp lead bullets have been expanding. It's an exaggeration to say that they don't expand when fired from a snubby.
Second if you look here:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special 10% Gelatin Performance Results.pdf
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special.htm
You can see the results from firing a few 158 gr. LSWCHP in 10 % ballistic gelatin. Note that they can expand. As well as more modern loads? Maybe not but it does prove that 158 gr. LSWCHP can and do expand from 1 7/8" barrels and often they deform quite well when they strike bone.
tipoc