+P ? No thanks.

158gr LSWCHP does not expand reliably from a snubbie. (The best test for reliable bullet expansion is properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth.) When it fails to expand its effective diameter is less than a full wadcutter, meaning the LSWCHP crushes a smaller diameter permanent cavity in soft tissues. (The sharp edge of the LWC shoulder is the most efficient shape for crushing/cutting soft tissues.)

The full wadcutter is an old trick but I am not crazy about using them. They often tumble and don't penetrate well in tissue.
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Black Hills 148gr LWC (6-inch bbl, 2" bbl penetrates sa minimum of 12-inches):
38-Spl-148-Gr.-HBWC-6in-9Nov10.jpg



...my wife uses the hornaday standard pressure 110gr critical defense FTX. I have tested several standard 38spl loadings for her to find one that would expand every time from her 1.9" inch barrel, and this was the clear winner.
Click to expand...

This load fails to penetrate a minimum of 12".
 
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158gr LSWCHP does not expand reliably from a snubbie.
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Well it's good to see you alter your opinion from "They do not expand" to it's current form of "reliably". I posted the link to show a 158 gr. lswc load penetrating past the 12" in 10% ballistic gelatin earlier.

Of course there are a good many loads that don't expand "reliably" in practice. This includes many newer loads like the 110 gr. jhps.

I also note you've added another level of difficulty to the standard by requiring the 38 Spl. from a snubby to pass thorough 4 layers of denim and penetrate at least 12" in 10% gelatin. It is more difficult for the heavier and therefore slower 158 gr. pill to do this from a snubby.

tipoc
 
I found Saxon Pig's article very interesting. I first started shooting handguns in 1954, an S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman and while most of my handloading for it was factory equivalent levels, I did load some 38/44 level loads as well.
I know for sure that .357 and .44 Mag. ammo and loading data has been downloaded. I still have one box of .357 Mag. ammo from around 1959, maybe 1960 and compared to the same brand/load today, let's just say today's load is definitely lighter. I remember when 15.5 gr. of #2400 was considered the max load for the .357 Mag./158 gr bullet and 22.0 gr. max for the .44 Mag. with 240/250 gr. bullets. Now it's 14.0 gr/158 gr. and 20.0 gr./240gr. respectively for the .44 mag. Why? The original loads for the .357 were beating the M19/66 S&Ws to death and Elmer's load was hard on the 1905 design "N" frame gun. Using Elmer's load, my M629 has been back to S&W twice after runs of 200 to 250 rounds.
It does not surprise me one bit that current .38 Spl. ammo has also been emasculated due to liability lawyers.
They say the average gunfight is at 21 feet or less. How much accuracy do you really need at that distance? Sometimes I practice with 148 gr. wadcutters point shooting at 7 yards with my S&W M60 finishing off with a couple of cylinderfuls of 125 gr. Federal Plus P ammo. Felt recoil is almost exactly the same from both rounds. I am seriously considering going back to reloads of the level I used back in 1954. I might shoot the gun loose as a goose but that can be repaired. The loss of my life cannot.
Paul B.
 
It does not surprise me one bit that current .38 Spl. ammo has also been emasculated due to liability lawyers.
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But keep in mind that he bullets made today are far better than what was available in those "glory days" and that goes a long way in making up for the decrease in velocity in modern factory loads.
 
The guy doing the first and third vids needs to polish his skill a bit. I almost got seasick watching them.
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LOL All three were done by ScubaOz. He has done some very good ballistic gel test youtube videos of all sorts of rounds. Very detailed, and informative.
 
I don't claim to be an expert, but i think there are several misconceptions at work here.
Primary of which is that a +P round causes overpenetration. I guess that seems intuitive...more powder=more power=more speed=more penetration.

In reality, in most cases that is wrong.

A given JHP bullet which travels faster expands more, and typically penetrates less.

So for me?

+P, yes, please. I tend to carry shorter barreled guns. The +p ammo would seem to make up for a bit of the velocity lost by the short barrel.

All is not necessarily equal, but I believe the principle applies...

I may be missing something as well. If so, please let me know.
 
The 158 grain standard velocity bullets don't expand from a J-frame snub. The 158-grain SWC +Ps don't expand that well--usually just some nose deformation. No expansion often leads to too much penetration and a narrow wound channel.

Even some of the 125-grain JHP +P bullets don't expand well. I've had good luck with the Remington 125-grain +P Golden Sabers, and that is what I carry in my 642. I've never found 110-grain ammo that shoots close to the sights past seven yards.

It helps to experiment with grips. That makes +P more bearable. But if that doesn't work for you, being on target with 148-grain wad cutters or 158-grain standard velocity RNs or SWCs trumps a lot of missing with expensive, hotter ammo one hates to practice with.
 
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An older discussion and tests by Stephen Camp in wetpack where the Rem. 158 gr. +P load did expand.

http://pistolsmith.com/ammunition/20003-geogia-arms-38-special-158-gr-lswchp-p-informal-test.html

and another with water jugs.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/factory-loads/67489-remington-158gr-lswc-hp-p-test-fbi-load.html

Below a test in ballistic gel showing expansion of the Rem 158 gr. LSWC from a snubby.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/factory-loads/67489-remington-158gr-lswc-hp-p-test-fbi-load-3.html

Finally we have this from Firearms Tactical showing penetration and expansions of Rem. 158 gr. +P ammo in 10 % ballistic gel.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/38special.htm

tipoc
 
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Tarcante said:
A couple of weeks ago, I finally bought my first revolver, a S&W 637 model. Just before leaving, the clerk asked me: "Are you going to buy ammo Sir?

What would you recommend? I said. He just grabbed a box of 125 grains +P .38 spl. jacketed hollow points from under the counter and before he could open the box i said: no thanks, I am looking just for standard ammo.

So he came back - from under the counter - and this time he had a box of 110 grain +P lead semi wad-cutters. Again, before he could even open the box I said: no, thanks.

I visited four different gun shops that same day... I had the same experience. Every time I asked for .38 spl. ammo, I was first offered the +P version.

Obviously, I understand the +P will give you more kinetic energy, based solely on the velocity, not on the weight of the vector.

But, even in a snubby, doesn't the 158 gr. .38 spl. (non + P) ammo, be enough for personal defense?
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It most certainly is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5pWEU8qX7g
 
If you just bought the gun I would recommend buying some cheap target ammo, and start shooting it before searching for the ultimate personal defense ammo.

There are several threads on best 38 ammo for snubbies, and there is a supporting opinion by somebody for virtually every .38 ammo ever made.
 
.38's are relatively slow pistol cartridges, especially from snubby barrels, which is why +P is often used.

What'd you be more comfortable with a 148 grain WC @ 650Fps or a 148grain WC @ 1000+FPS?


'over penetration' in general is exaggerated, IMO. Do you hit 100% of shots in 100% of the infinite amount of situations you could be in? Didn't think so.

Better off with a hole that's too deep than a hole that isn't deep enough. I wouldn't be striving for expansion in a low energy round like the .38spl
 
What'd you be more comfortable with a 148 grain WC @ 650Fps or a 148grain WC @ 1000+FPS?
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Neither. A modern, well designed 135gr. JHP +P @ somewhere around 850fps seems to be quite capable if 12"+ penetration, and expansion in excess of 1/2" is all you need. Good enough for the FBI protocol, good enough for me!:D
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=DnhjGPhvsIo
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=7Fs4lFOvuTw
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=khazbS9pWjE
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY
 
so what is +p+

I still have some factory +p + .38 spl. from the 80's I think.
I use it in .357 revolvers.

Are these loads really more like the old 38/44 or are they hotter?
 
I still have some factory +p + .38 spl. from the 80's I think.
I use it in .357 revolvers.

Are these loads really more like the old 38/44 or are they hotter?
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It was pointed out earlier in this thread that SAMMI recognizes standard 38 Spl. ammo and +P variations which are loaded to a higher pressure than standard pressure rounds.

As I recall 38 Spl. maxes out at 17,000 psi
+P at 18,500psi and +P+ at 20,000 to 22,000 psi

The latter was not recognized by SAMMI which means that individual manufacturers sold this ammo on their own and listed it as +P+ in order to let folks know that it was hotter than +P. This first showed up in boxes labeled "For Law Enforcement Only".

There is debate about how hot the old 38/44 ammo was. Part of that is because a number of manufacturers named their ammo "Super Police Loads" and similar names when it wasn't all that hotter than standard loads and also because the velocities were often taken from 7 1/2" unvented test barrels. Many state that the old 38/44 ammo did 1200-1300 fps from a 6" barrel or hotter with a 158 gr. load.

I have here Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" Third Edition from 1953 which shows a 146 gr. soft hollow point bullet loaded over 8.2 gr.s of Unique doing 1330 fps from a 6" barrel. The pressure though is 32,300 and much higher than any modern +P+ loads would go.

With a 158 gr. bullet Sharpe was managing over 1100 fps at 20,000 psi and a bit over that from a 6" barrel. That is within modern pressures.

tipoc
 
Not even close to the old 38/44 loads.

I have chrono-ed original 38/44 ammo and done a lot of write ups on it. Figure 1125 to 1150 FPS with a 158 out of a 5" gun.

I don't believe the 80's vintage +P+ stuff was even close to that level but I could be wrong. I thought they got up to around 1150 with a 125 grn bullet but the memory could be a bit off.

Digging up older history from a prior post and I quote:

Now lets try out the final stuff. This is real 1940’s vintage 38/44 ammo. It says “.38-44 S.&W. Special” 158 grn Lead bullet. The box says “r266” as the version of the load an it specifically says “specially adapted for the .38-44 Smith and Wesson Special”.

3844_r266.jpg

This is the 38/44 ammo that was chrono-ed.

6.5” 1198+ 1057- 141e 1121m 82s
5.0” 1131+ 1002- 129e 1079m 71s
4.0” 1069+ 739- 330e 1010m 103s (one bad round)

I had a bunch of misfires so I was barely able to get my 12 rounds for testing of each. That is why I was stuck with the one bad round on the 4”. I just ran out of decent ammo otherwise I would have voided the round and shot another one. So do I believe that original 38/44 ammo would have done about 1150 fps out of a 6.5” and 1125 fps out of a 5”? Yes. The degradation of the ammo in the last 70 years could explain my results running a bit slow compared to expectations. We are certainly not far outside the range of belief on the commercial of that vintage. Given the number of duds I had in the box, it would be quite believable that 1175 and 1150 are the targets.
 
+P ? No thanks

Tarcante said:
But, even in a snubby, doesn´t the 158 gr. .38 spl. (non + P) ammo, be enough for personal defense?
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Depends mostly on the bullet, in my opinion. The old LRN has a mediocre reputation as a fight stopper. A good modern design hollow point would be a better choice.

But in my experience, bullet choices are pretty limited in non +P and the greater selection of +P configurations is what has me using that type of 38spl for my carry and HD loads.
 
The .38 special "super police" load was a 200 grain round nose lead bullet sailing along at a leisurely 600 FPS or so from a 4" barrel, might be a little off on the velocity.

Supposedly this load yaws in tissue due to the very long bullet or something to that effect... it seemed to be slightly more effective than standard 158 grain LRN ammo.
 
Not all lead round nose bullets are equal. I can not speak for the old factory loads, but my positively non +P 200 grain LRN reloads seem to be a lot more effective than the 158 grain LRN. In fact, I have found them to be much more potent against large varmints than +P Winchester LSWCHPs, which presumably did not expand. It's pretty easy to reach 600 fps and 700 fps from two and four inch barreled guns using a mere 3.4 grains of Unique. A 200 grain .38 that yaws presents the same frontal surface area as a .50+ caliber bullet.
 
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