Owner of broken rifle surrenders for 30-month sentence
- Thread starter bugaboo
- Start date
Don't discount this possibility. During the congressional hearings after Waco, it was shown that FBI agents routinely lied to Congress cover up their actions. This lie continued for nearly 3 years until they finally admitted their deceit. Don't get snookered into thinking that those in power in our government are incapable of treachery and deceit. Deceit is routine among those in government and often in law enforcement.
Stagger Lee
New member
What must it be like to wake up every day and be scared of the government and the police in particular? From my experience, the only class of people who hates and fears the police are criminals. So if you're all scared of the police, you might want to ask yourself if you're living right and in accordance with the laws of our country.
And you can delude yourself all day long into thinking that the Constitution makes your wet-dreams about owning illegal guns permissible. But since I don't see a line of such "patriots" standing outside the nearest federal building with a homemade machine gun waiting to turn themselves in and prove that the Constitution says what they claim that it does, I have to conclude that even they know that it really doesn't.
Real brave men stand up and fight for their beliefs. Cowards--like Olofson and Randy Weaver--run away or lie to their supporters to gain sympathy.
And you can delude yourself all day long into thinking that the Constitution makes your wet-dreams about owning illegal guns permissible. But since I don't see a line of such "patriots" standing outside the nearest federal building with a homemade machine gun waiting to turn themselves in and prove that the Constitution says what they claim that it does, I have to conclude that even they know that it really doesn't.
Real brave men stand up and fight for their beliefs. Cowards--like Olofson and Randy Weaver--run away or lie to their supporters to gain sympathy.
MicroBalrog
New member
Really? You must have been living a sheltered life.
What does this have to do with bravery or cowardice?
Stagger Lee
New member
I reiterate. If you're afraid of the good guys, then by definition, you must be a bad guy.
Police = good guys.
Me = on the side of the good guys.
Olofson = bad guy
You = ?
Police = good guys.
Me = on the side of the good guys.
Olofson = bad guy
You = ?
What "scares" me is some of the post I see in this thread, my family /ancestors have served in all wars since the beginning of this country also in law enforcement however it should be part of the duty of citizens to question laws and actions of law enforcement/government and I see a trend here and in society that appears to be believe any action taken by a prosecutor is good or correct. The lack of daily common sense appears to be slipping within our country, while certainly what this man done was incorrect and in violation of law the sentence was harsh, we should strive to put really bad guys behind bars and we certainly have plenty of those in our growing population.
MicroBalrog
New member
No, that's not necessarily true.
Police are not necessarily good guys. Not everybody who opposes the actions of police is a bad guy.
Nor is Olofson a bad guy.
as I said before, blind support or opposition to the gov't and LEOs is wrong.
Elian Gonzalez
New Orleans Gun Confiscations
Police dogs attacking civil rights protesters
Civil rights activists murdered by Klansmen and Mississippi police officers.
Gov't and its officials can be oppressive and evil... That is not the goal of most but there will always be some who will abuse their power. It is stupid to assume gov't is always right and equally stupid to assume gov't is always wrong.
Got any evidence that justice was not done?
What were the routine lies and what actions were they covering up?
Look this whole thing is analogous to the guy who gets caught with drugs, soliciting a prostitute or perhaps illegal gambling. I'm against those laws, but I don't break them, or at the very least I take great pains not to get caught violating them.
However I'm not going to go to bat for the guy who solicits a street hooker that turns out to be an undercover cop, and then tries to tell us he is being railroaded and was only offering the nice young lady a ride. Olofson knew that altering his rifle to fire automatically was illegal, he then loaned it to some dork who fired it in auto mode in public. I think 30 months is excessive and I don't like the ban on auto firing weapons, but Olofson could have easily avoid this whole ordeal, by not breaking the law.
CGSteve8718
New member
Thank you for posting those pictures Musketeer. I guess going by our differing previous posts, we won't agree on most things, but you are right on the money and your response with those pics are the perfect response I had in mind to Stagger Lee's naivete.
Now back to my scheduled philosophical rantings. Stagger, what exactly is an "illegal gun", because they say it is? Now, don't take this as me supporting Mr. Olofson, because I do not, and have never said I did. But just imagine that they made all the guns you currently own "illegal", would you just be one of the ones to go turning them in because the "law is the law"? We were one vote away from the 2A being taken away.
I have worn a uniform, and my career aspirations are to continue serving in some form, but to think that because someone has chevrons on a uniform, or a badge, is a magical white knight is the most astonishingly insane, and naive thing I have ever read anywhere. Men in uniforms, men with badges, are still men. In my brief service, I have had the pleasure of seeing and knowing some very fine examples of what a decent person should be like. I have also had the displeasure of seeing and knowing what a total scumbag, waste of air is like. Both of them wore a uniform.
Furthermore, the whole thing about daring us to modify our existing semi autos the way Olofson did is a non argument. What a felony is has been altered, and perverted almost beyond belief. What people are taught, told, and believe about all firearms in general has been perverted almost beyond belief. We as gun owners are the minority already. Of course, after almost a century after certain anti gun legislations were passed in this country, the general populace, and the current levels of govt. are going to "believe" that select fire weapons are "illegal", super extra dangerous, and violations should be punished severely. Just look at yourself, you bought into it.
Stagger, by your own simple logic, if you ever once let your vehicle go just one mile over the posted speed limit, you are a bad guy. You deserve to rot in prison along with the rest of the criminal scum just like you.
Now back to my scheduled philosophical rantings. Stagger, what exactly is an "illegal gun", because they say it is? Now, don't take this as me supporting Mr. Olofson, because I do not, and have never said I did. But just imagine that they made all the guns you currently own "illegal", would you just be one of the ones to go turning them in because the "law is the law"? We were one vote away from the 2A being taken away.
I have worn a uniform, and my career aspirations are to continue serving in some form, but to think that because someone has chevrons on a uniform, or a badge, is a magical white knight is the most astonishingly insane, and naive thing I have ever read anywhere. Men in uniforms, men with badges, are still men. In my brief service, I have had the pleasure of seeing and knowing some very fine examples of what a decent person should be like. I have also had the displeasure of seeing and knowing what a total scumbag, waste of air is like. Both of them wore a uniform.
Furthermore, the whole thing about daring us to modify our existing semi autos the way Olofson did is a non argument. What a felony is has been altered, and perverted almost beyond belief. What people are taught, told, and believe about all firearms in general has been perverted almost beyond belief. We as gun owners are the minority already. Of course, after almost a century after certain anti gun legislations were passed in this country, the general populace, and the current levels of govt. are going to "believe" that select fire weapons are "illegal", super extra dangerous, and violations should be punished severely. Just look at yourself, you bought into it.
Stagger, by your own simple logic, if you ever once let your vehicle go just one mile over the posted speed limit, you are a bad guy. You deserve to rot in prison along with the rest of the criminal scum just like you.
Stagger Lee
New member
Gee, how can I possibly argue with someone who insults me, justifies his paranoia by asking me to imagine a reality different than the reality that we now have, and then implies that the majority of Americans are too stupid to "get it" like he does? 
Take whatever prize you want and go.
Take whatever prize you want and go.
CGSteve8718
New member
Stagger Lee said:
If you want to cop out of this discussion, fine by me.
If you can stomach discourse with me, I have another example with you since you seem to focus on what the reality is.
Are Washington DC's actions legal, are they right? Even after the Heller decision, the only handguns allowed are revolvers. Semi auto pistols are still too dangerous, and are still prohibited from ownership. That is the "law", that is reality.
If you want to say that I call the majority stupid fine, but it's more like they've been told what to believe, and no longer know what to think for themselves. If you think we are not a minority, you are wrong. Using DC as an example again, not to call them "stupid", but what do you think their general concensus on guns is? Evil, dangerous, should be banned? Correct, and why is that?
Reality is not static Stagger. The reality is that there did not used to be a ban on the weapon type in question. The reality is there once was an AWB, and they are always working on another one to get through. The reality is that Washington DC did not always have draconian gun laws, and then poof they did.
I really wish that we all could live in freeze and not look at history, or worry/fight for future events/causes.
Don't worry Stagger, I'm a good guy. I was in the military, and I am also a veteran. I am also looking to get into law enforcement. So even if I "insulted" you, you are still with me. Thanks! Or perhaps you can make an exception for me?
I'm a bit scared here. How do you think we got to the point we are with 'the incorporationist doctrine', and the current gun laws?
I'd really suggest you get over to Jim March's thread on is draft of the topic, and you will find our lack of a 2A right has been pretty much defined by the court legalizing racism, through a number of shady decisions. Pretty much it's,
'you can own a gun', as long as you aren't black, chinese, etc.
I'm not, by the way, talking in theory. These were court cases, and laws written in the last 80 years. Who do you think wrote those laws, and, who do you think enforced them?
Jim's thread is here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301054
This is an example of a court system failing, both under it's duty to the Constitution, and, again when the 14th amendment was passed.
READ the rest of the article....
I'd really suggest you get over to Jim March's thread on is draft of the topic, and you will find our lack of a 2A right has been pretty much defined by the court legalizing racism, through a number of shady decisions. Pretty much it's,
'you can own a gun', as long as you aren't black, chinese, etc.
I'm not, by the way, talking in theory. These were court cases, and laws written in the last 80 years. Who do you think wrote those laws, and, who do you think enforced them?
Jim's thread is here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301054
This is an example of a court system failing, both under it's duty to the Constitution, and, again when the 14th amendment was passed.
READ the rest of the article....
MicroBalrog
New member
Wait, you're seriously implying that the Founders did not actually believe in natural rights?
so, when I see cops in New Orleans taking away peoples guns for no legal reason whatsoever, and the thought that it could happen to me, and I might get tackled and injured like Patricia Konie, the old lady, did, or even worse, since I'm no old lady and might be considered a "threat", and it worries me, it automatically means I must be a "bad guy' or a criminal?
When I see surveliance video of a drunken Chicago cop stomping on a 100#, 5' tall female bartender because she refused to serve him more liquer, and the thought it could happen to me scares me or my wife , I'm a criminal?
How about when a swat team raids the a house like in Atlanta, kills a 90 year ld woman in the house, then plants drugs and threatens someone into pretending to be an "informant" to cover up their killing of an old woman, and it worries me the same could happen to me and my family, because my house number may be too similar to a drug dealer's, that makes me a criminal?
And all cops=good guys, so anyone who doesnt support everything they do is a bad guy? So you support all the things the cops above did, because cops are good guys, and you are on the side of good guys, right? and those of us who think those cops are criminals, are ourselves, in fact, the actual bad guys?
makes total sense.
Stagger Lee
New member
Let's not try to confuse the issue, people. Bringing up three or four individual examples of times when police officers have done wrong doesn't make your case or undermine mine, because it's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the people--and there are several on this forum--who think that anyone who works for BATFE is an evil gun grabber part of some conspiracy, and that all federal and most local police officers exist only to deny us our rights. That's the stupid stuff that I'm responding to, so please don't try to take it off track, either with references to individual acts of a few bad apples--most all of whom were subsequently punished by the system--or paranoid "what if's".
And we all know that most of the fantasies that stem from the idea of a rogue federal government revolve around a desire to start shooting all of our police officers and government officials one day. It's the ultimate in self-puffery from a few sad, pathetic types who, IMHO, should not be allowed to own so much as a super-soaker squirt gun.
The reality is--and always has been, and always will be--that our government is whatever we, the people, make of it, that there is no huge conspiracy to disarm and enslave us all, and that the people who stroke off dreaming about how one day they'll be surrounded by the dead bodies of the cops who came to take their guns are the real cretins and cancers on America and a greater threat to liberty than any law-enforcement agency is.
And that also applies to those who lionize certain criminals just because those criminals also like guns.
I'm talking about the people--and there are several on this forum--who think that anyone who works for BATFE is an evil gun grabber part of some conspiracy, and that all federal and most local police officers exist only to deny us our rights. That's the stupid stuff that I'm responding to, so please don't try to take it off track, either with references to individual acts of a few bad apples--most all of whom were subsequently punished by the system--or paranoid "what if's".
And we all know that most of the fantasies that stem from the idea of a rogue federal government revolve around a desire to start shooting all of our police officers and government officials one day. It's the ultimate in self-puffery from a few sad, pathetic types who, IMHO, should not be allowed to own so much as a super-soaker squirt gun.
The reality is--and always has been, and always will be--that our government is whatever we, the people, make of it, that there is no huge conspiracy to disarm and enslave us all, and that the people who stroke off dreaming about how one day they'll be surrounded by the dead bodies of the cops who came to take their guns are the real cretins and cancers on America and a greater threat to liberty than any law-enforcement agency is.
And that also applies to those who lionize certain criminals just because those criminals also like guns.
so,when faced with proof that not all LEO's, and people in government positions are "good guys", isnt it possible that the BATFE agent who examined Olofson's rifle, and who testified against him, and paid a witness to also testify against him, couldnt possibly just happen to be on be of those few bad apples looking to make a simple malfunction into an intentional criminal act, for whatever reason? It doesnt have to be an anti-gun conspiracy, it could just be the guy wanted to make points to get a raise or promotion. MANY people have done far worse for fame, money and/or power.
I dont know if thats what happened here or not, and unless someone confesses to wrongdoing, no one ever will know for sure, but those that fear that could be what happened in this case are paranoid and anti cop/anti government haters? Seems to me they are just skeptics based on having seen what some people are capable of, and suspect it may be what happened here.
sure, there may be some people who are paranoid or antigoverment, just like there are some that are naive and willing to support the government automatically, based on the governments word alone, without question. I appen to fall in the middle somewhere, as would the vast maority of people.
Just becasue someone is convicted of a crime, doesnt mean they were truly guilty. If that were the case, people convicted of murder and rape wouldnt be getting let out of prison on appeals, or when new evidence or techniques like DNA testing prove they were telling the truth and were innocent.It certainly does happen, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally.
Lookt at former DA Mike Nifong. He got caught knowingly, and intentionaly withholding and manipulating evidence while trying to convict some college students of a rape he had PROOF they did not commit, all for money, and fame. He was willing to intentionally send 5 college kids to a long sentence in prison, where they would likely suffer many horrors, for many years, robbing them of thier youth, and thru a folony rape conviction, having them labled and monitored a sex offenders for life, and stripping them permantly of thier right to vote, or ever touch a gun. Why? so he could pad his conviction record, and look like a hero and gain brownie points for a successful prosecution of a high profile crime.
When confronted with plenty of evidence that these kinds of things happen, with who knows how much frequency (we only know about those who get caught), having a healthy skepticism and fear of those with so much power over our lives and freedoms, as justified, and far from paranoid, IMHO.
the problem is, we never know which cops, prosecuters, senators, BATFE agents, etc are the good guys, and which ones arent. given that, blindly trusting them all is foolish, IMHO Since you cant know who's good and whose bad, it's easy to assume all are bad, at least to some extent, for the sake of trying not to be the next victim, which becomes more possible if you go to the other extreme and blindly assume all are good.
also, it doesnt have to be a vast conspiracy that involves ALL cops, ATF agents, congreesmen, etc. It really only has to be a handfull that are in charge who make the decisions, and give the orders to all the others, who may them be acting on good faith assuming they are doing right, when in fact, they may be getting manipulated, and used as pawns to carry out 1 mans ill intent.
I dont know if thats what happened here or not, and unless someone confesses to wrongdoing, no one ever will know for sure, but those that fear that could be what happened in this case are paranoid and anti cop/anti government haters? Seems to me they are just skeptics based on having seen what some people are capable of, and suspect it may be what happened here.
sure, there may be some people who are paranoid or antigoverment, just like there are some that are naive and willing to support the government automatically, based on the governments word alone, without question. I appen to fall in the middle somewhere, as would the vast maority of people.
Just becasue someone is convicted of a crime, doesnt mean they were truly guilty. If that were the case, people convicted of murder and rape wouldnt be getting let out of prison on appeals, or when new evidence or techniques like DNA testing prove they were telling the truth and were innocent.It certainly does happen, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally.
Lookt at former DA Mike Nifong. He got caught knowingly, and intentionaly withholding and manipulating evidence while trying to convict some college students of a rape he had PROOF they did not commit, all for money, and fame. He was willing to intentionally send 5 college kids to a long sentence in prison, where they would likely suffer many horrors, for many years, robbing them of thier youth, and thru a folony rape conviction, having them labled and monitored a sex offenders for life, and stripping them permantly of thier right to vote, or ever touch a gun. Why? so he could pad his conviction record, and look like a hero and gain brownie points for a successful prosecution of a high profile crime.
When confronted with plenty of evidence that these kinds of things happen, with who knows how much frequency (we only know about those who get caught), having a healthy skepticism and fear of those with so much power over our lives and freedoms, as justified, and far from paranoid, IMHO.
the problem is, we never know which cops, prosecuters, senators, BATFE agents, etc are the good guys, and which ones arent. given that, blindly trusting them all is foolish, IMHO Since you cant know who's good and whose bad, it's easy to assume all are bad, at least to some extent, for the sake of trying not to be the next victim, which becomes more possible if you go to the other extreme and blindly assume all are good.
also, it doesnt have to be a vast conspiracy that involves ALL cops, ATF agents, congreesmen, etc. It really only has to be a handfull that are in charge who make the decisions, and give the orders to all the others, who may them be acting on good faith assuming they are doing right, when in fact, they may be getting manipulated, and used as pawns to carry out 1 mans ill intent.
Your argument would have far more credibility if you hadn't started by making the blanket statement:
You seem not to like "Isolated Incident," how about a history of abuse of power by LEOs...
CATO Map of Botched Police Paramilitary Raids:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
I do not agree with what Olofson did and agree, he did the crime and should do the time. It is naive though to assume that all cops are by default honest and concerned first and foremost with their public service. They are individuals, with individual needs and desires. If John Q. Public is between them and their welfare most are going to decide for their own welfare, as most non-LEOs will. The majority are not going to attempt to frame an innocent for no reason but if the "creation" of a little evidence will support their position and help them you would be foolish to consider it impossible.
Do I think all or even most cops run around creating evidence on a daily basis, of course not. Do I believe some will break the law to their own benefit. Certainly.
One should certainly give LEOs the benefit of a doubt. At the same time blind faith would be moronic. What is more the BATF has a long and dirty history of wantonly abusing legal gun owners. For that reason one should not be surprised when a case driven by the BATF is questioned by those supporting gun rights, even if the evidence appears to support the charges. If the BATF did not have the dirty history it does then their support would not be so lacking.