Our Losses in Iraq...

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Oh, I did check out "truthout.com". Made me wonder why the other side even needs propaganda. We provide it for them. (Should have called themselves "throwtruthout.com") ;)
To you and all the Firing Line, happy thanksgiving. Despite our different views, we can all be thankful for the right to express them.
 
can we buy into the PNAC? The idea being a conspiracy of sorts to spread American power throughout the world.

I wouldn't characterize it as a "conspiracy". For it to be a conspiracy, it would have to be secret. The PNAC has been kind enough to put it all out there for the whole world to see. There isn't any question about their true motives. The only inconsistency is between their media campaign that they used to sell the war to the American public, and the real reasons for going to war in Iraq. If you read their letter to Clinton in 1998, they make no mention of spreading democracy, but they definitely do reference the security of the oil supply in Iraq.

I guess the only conspiracy about the PNAC would be the mainstream media's complicity in not telling the story. Very few references in places like 60 minutes, Nightline, Russert, Matthews, etc. where Neocons and the PNAC are discussed or debated. Not a total secret in the mainstream media, but not exactly the headline story in any of these outlets.

There is a serious disconnect when the reasons for the war are not being told, and the reasons formed and spun to convince the American public are instead bought into wholesale and go relatively unchallenged.

It's o.k. for you to have an opinion that we needed war in Iraq regardless of the reasons, but not everybody has that opinion. Most Americans needed to be sold on the idea, and needed certain criteria met for this "preemptive" war to be justified. The problem is there was no debate about the so called "facts" that were being put out there to satisfy the criteria that the administration was trying to address.

I think the administration really painted itself into a corner when they started the whole mantra about spreading democracy. Even though the PNAC does have democracy in their "vision" of the world, my sense is that democracy was more of an afterthought on their part - a way to soften their "first alternative is war" philosophy. They really do want to spread U.S. influence through might (in a sort of Roman Empire kind of way), and refer to the necessity of managing multiple theaters of war simultaneously. In reality it's kind of difficult to vanquish your opponent, and have enough of him left that is willing to embrace your philosophy of democracy.

Their vision, in my opinion, is not only laced with hubris, it's also naïve. The "crazies" (neocons) as they were referred to by the pentagon and Colin Powell, really didn't care about the reality of what their actions would bring, but instead believed in their own ideology so much that they didn't pay much attention to the potential results. The whole "greeting us with roses" mentality is indicative of this naïveté. They really did think might was enough, and the kind of results that they are getting were unexpected.
 
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I don't like depending on other countries, but what else do you suggest we do? The simple fact is that if we become isolationist our culture would collapse. And politicians would never allow that.
 
ok scenario iraq has elections. shiite majority elects hard line cleric with backing from iran. well he was freely elected. by the iraqi people.

This is exactly correct, and the likely outcome. We're turning a basically secular government under Saddam, and handing it over to the interests that dominate Iran, which is a theocratic, radical Muslim state. We'll be doubling Iran's sphere of influence.

If we were really interested in creating an example of a free democratic society, the best opportunity would have been in Afghanistan. The people there had even less freedom than the Iraqi's under Saddam. And, the opposition encountered in Afghanistan is much more manageable than what we're facing in Iraq.
 
russel77:

Don't trouble their minds with these trivialities. This administration is intent on creating its own reality. We're just left here to study it and think about it when it is all over. :rolleyes:
 
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CobrayCommando,

Our culture would collapse?? It is going to be destroyed as it is being assimilated into global socialism.
 
Russel77,

After Gillespie's nod 'n wink to Mr. Hussein, and Kuwait was occupied by Iraqi forces, the G H W Bush administration went to extraordinary measures to convince Congress and the public of the "need" to drive them out of Kuwait.

The most outrageous being the Hill & Knowlton's PR production headed by Craig Fuller (Bush's former Vice Presidential chief of staff) for a cool $11 million paid in by "Citizens for a Free Kuwait". This included the theatrical performance by Nayirah who claimed she had to keep her last name "secret" for "fear of reprisals". No wonder the secrecy; she was the daughter of Sheik yo'money Saud Nasir al-Sabah, Kuwait's Ambassador to the United States.

Nayirah put on a real show (if you didn't see it); sobbing while she testified before Congress that Saddam's troopers were tossing babies out of incubators to die on the floor.

George H W Bush himself publicly repeated this blatant lie many times, as did Vice Pres Dan Quayle, as he appealed to the emotions to win hearts and minds.

Then there was the "doctor" - who was really a dentist. "Dr." Issah Ibraham testified to the U.N. that "The hardest thing was burying the babies. Under my supervision, 120 newborn babies were buried in the second week of the invasion. I myself buried 40 newborn babies that had been taken from their incubators by soldiers."

G H W Bush and his cronies are as corrupted liars as William J Clinton and his administration's attack and occupation of Yugoslavia.
 
macavada
I think the administration really painted itself into a corner when they started the whole mantra about spreading democracy.

And as if "democracy" isn't a bad enough concept to introduce to any country (that's another topic though), what countries like Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq are being turned over to is more on the european socialist model. Which is not surprizing; and it is not surprizing that many of these people are going to reject that idea outright when it is clear that they are still nothing more than client states on top of it all.
 
No impeachments under this government. They got the whole enchilada. The congress the executive branch and the courts.

Makes you wonder what the heck those founding fathers were worried about with all that checks and balances baloney. Sheesh.
 
Allright who here is with me, we rebel against the government and force it to stop turning America into a socialist state? I am friggin tired of being a world power, can we stop being hated by everybody but Tony Blair now?

I'm pretty sure the constitution and the declaration of independence make it our duty to throw off a tyrannical government and replace it with something closer to the original, constitutional government.

My first act will be to make drugs, alchohol, and all manner of tobacco and firearms completely legal and actually required to have to be a citizen.
 
Saddam asked for permission to invade Kuwait and we gave it to him.

Yeah.

The media were somehow unable to find out about this little nugget of truth at the time and it's just NOW been rediscovered.

Yeah.

The moral of this story? Wait 10 years after a historical event and then publish anything you want about it. People's memories are short, and reasoning ability is rare. Besides, a good percentage of folks will believe anything they see in print...
 
Shortly before the invasion, Saddam called a meeting with then US ambassador April Gillespie, who told Saddam: "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." She went on to say: "James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction." (San Francisco Examiner, 11/18/02)
Using your evidence, how does that constitute permission?
 
We hold these truths to be pretty self evident that all men are created pretty equal and are endowed by their creator with pretty unalienable rights...

I'm guessing that the reason it's not written that way is that "pretty self evident" isn't self evident at all.

BTW, there are border disputes all over the world. Just because the U.S. says it doesn't want to involve itself in a border dispute it's not giving either country carte blanche to invade and take over the other.

Sort of like you calling 911 and telling the police that you have a difference of opinion with your boss. The police say that they have no interest in your dispute. You shoot your boss and then when they come to arrest you, you claim that the 911 tape where the cop says that he's not interested in your problem is law enforcement giving you permission to murder your boss.

Gimme a break...
 
If you think a border dispute between two countries on the other side of the world is equivalent to someone having sex with your wife then it probably is self-evident to you...
...obvious to most people with at least a 3rd grade education... can you actually tie your own shoes...ask your neighbors in the trailer next to yours
:D You're better at humor than international affairs. Which is to say, PRETTY bad at both.
 
so your saying it was a border dispute?
and we got involved in it?
Where the heck did THAT come from? No, I'm not saying we got involved in a border dispute--I can't even imagine where you got that out of what I have posted. I'm saying we DIDN'T get involved in the border dispute. We only got involved when it turned into an invasion and occupation.
if we need to get involved in border disputes
Clearly we DON'T. That's why we told Iraq that their border dispute with Kuwait was not of interest to us.
you cannot refute what was said
Actually, I don't see that I've had any problem refuting anything...
you said this little nugget was found 10 years after the fact
That's taken out of context. I'm not saying that our lack of interest in their border dispute was just now discovered. You said that we gave Saddam permission to invade--THAT'S what's NEW. 10 years after the fact suddenly you're trying to tell people that our stated disinterest in a border dispute was equivalent to giving Saddam permission to invade. If that were really the case it would have been pasted all over the news of the time. Especially, if, as you say, Saddam kept saying it over and over.
your one of those people who are scared if they learn the truth there whole world will collapse...you dont impress me in the least as some one with even a fair amount of intelligence
I think I can say with some authority that truth and intelligence are qualities which are not easy for you to identify.
 
"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."
kim yong il called a meeting and said he had difficulties with south korea and was thinking of invading
Are you seriously telling me that in your mind there is no difference between a border dispute and a declaration of intent to invade and occupy?
 
saddam tells our ambassador he is going to invade kuwait
Post Saddam's actual quote and the source of the quote.

You've posted the other enough that I know it by heart. In case you haven't noticed, it doesn't contain any information supporting your claim that Saddam actually said he intended to invade.
 
You did not post sources. I'm going to answer using your own quotes but that doesn't mean that I'm not still asking for you to document them.

There is nothing in Saddam's quotes mentioning the possibility of invasion and occupation. The editorial thrown in heavily implies it but even the editorial notes don't specifically say that he's talking about invasion.

Even Glaspie in the quotes you mentioned indicated that she took Saddam's statements to mean that he was talking about nothing more serious than seizing some oilfields near the border--typical border dispute stuff.

Besides, surely you also realize that there is a good bit of rhetoric traded in such meetings. If everything that were implied or even said outright in ambassadorial meetings came true the world would be a smoking cinder...

Also, there is nothing in the meeting that could be construed as America "giving permission" for an invasion. At the very worst the ambassador IMPLIED that we would take no action if Iraq siezed some oil fields but even that is a stretch. She certainly did not give permission for invasion and occupation. Her quotes clearly indicate that she had not even considered that invasion and occupation was a possibility.
ironically, this (annexation of Kuwait by Iraq) was done in a method historically similar to the American anexation of Texas
Ridiculous. Post some documentation of all the looting, pillaging, raping and killing that went on during the American annexation of TX.
 
For pity's sake!

That quote is referring to what the U.S. AND Texas did to MEXICO which was continuing to claim and harass TX in spite of TX declaration of independence 10 years earlier. That's talking about the war between U.S. and Mexico.

TX was VOLUNTARILY (on both sides) annexed by the U.S. partly to help solve their problem with Mexico. The pillaging, etc. , in your quote, was committed during the Mexican American war and was against MEXICO who was still stubbornly attempting to occupy the independent country of TX. To say that TX's voluntary annexation by the U.S. is equivalent to Iraq invading and occupying Kuwait is totally crazy.

BTW, I would still like the sources for your quotes on the Glaspie & Saddam quotes. Unless you have an unusual habit of copying down data for later use, you copied it from somewhere. I don't see the harm in telling me where you got it.
 
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