[OT]: They're foreclosing on my house because I displayed the American Flag.

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FUD

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Those that have been following my posts, know that I have an issue with my Home Owners Association (see "http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37596 and "http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37603) over a whole bunch of stupid issues. Well, on the fourth of July I put up an American flag which is a clear violation of the Association by-laws but it was our national holiday and I didn't care.

About three weeks later I received a letter (containing a dated photo of the flag in front of my house) which said that I was found to be in violation of section XX, paragraph YY and I was being fined $212.50 for offenses committed against the community.

I found this whole thing to be absurd -- displaying an American flag in America is an offense against the community?

I wrote back to them telling them that I thought this whole thing was absurd and since I only displayed the flag on one day, I wasn't going to pay their fine -- it wasn't like I was breaking their stupid rules everyday and I think that I should be allowed to display the American Flag all year round and especially on national holidays.

Over a month went by and I didn't hear anything and I completely forgot about it. Well, today I received a certified letter from a lawyer telling me that a lien has been placed against my property in the amount of $588.83 (which includes the original fine plus additional penalities) with the county court and unless this amount was paid in thirty days, he would begin foreclosure proceedings.

My question is: can they really do this? Can I lose my house because I displayed an American flag on the fourth of July?

Dennis, our home owners association expert, I need your wisdom.

mrsMTN, you'll be getting my resume within the next day or two.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited September 10, 2000).]
 
My first impulse, after fighting back nausea is to say 'yes':

by purchasing a house in an area with a homeowners association or anything where you sign covenants to abide by rules, you have entered into a legal contract to abide by those selfsame silly rules. Freedoms provided by the Constitution do not apply- the Bill of Rights grants you protection from governmental intrusion. The homeowner's association isn't government, its a club you joined by buying your house (or some similar arrangement- no one put a gun to your head making you live there, it was your choice).

It sucks. And not to rub salt in a currently very open wound, silly little meddling things like that are reasons why i would NEVER join a homeowner's association or live where one existed. If my neighbors are so darned concerned what my house looks like and what I do on my property, they can...well...common courtesy precludes me from saying what they can do, but lets just say it is obscenely biological and they could go blind from doing it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. Thats not to say you have no recourse even if I'm right, but I'd bet it would involve quite a bit of legal fees to get undone. :(

And no, I'm not a lawyer, nor a homeowner's assoc expert. Please correct anything I said here that was wrong.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Call every damn newspaper and television station that you can find! The country may be going to Hell in a hand cart about our RKBA but for God's sake I would think that most Americans would shame these "people" into backing off on this one. :mad: :mad: :mad: $#^$&#$&@$@#%# :mad:

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
FUD,

Have I not in the past counseled, at least one, and possibly several times, that you need to consult an attorney in your dealings with your HOA?

Well, guess what.

YOU NEED A LAWYER, AND YOU NEED ONE MONDAY MORNING AT 9 AM DAMNIT!

You need an attorney who specializes in HOA law for the state of Florida.

You need to take along your handbook of HOA Rules and Regulations.

You need to take along ALL communications you've had with the HOA on this matter.

You also need to contact: your local media outlets, your local VFW representatives, your state congressional representatives, and hell, probably even the ACLU.

Can your HOA foreclose on you for this? The fact that they're trying it with the Association should give you a pretty good indication that yes, they CAN.

The final arbiter on this will, of course, be the Florida HOA laws and the judge.

Your BIGGEST mistake was NOT responding to the first communication from your HOA by contacting an attorney.

Question for you:

1. Do the HOA rules & covenants allow flags of other types, such as the daffodil and easter banners that some people put up?

If this is the case, then the HOA may very well not have a leg upon which to stand. But you do NOT know that without the assistance of a competent HOA-versed attorney.

I'm being DEADLY SERIOUS about this, FUD. This is NOT funny, it is NOT a joke, and it is NOT something that will go away if you ignore it!

YOU NEED AN ATTORNEY NOW.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
You need to pay the 588 and cut your losses,
just like anything else you need to pick the time and place to do battle.

After paying the money, send a letter to everyone in the development, and tell them what to expect if they don't follow the rules.

Then if they are stilling selling homes in the development, start picketing the entrances and other areas where large volumes of people may pass.

I would study the homeowners rules and regulations, I guarantee you will find a loophole.

If you do this right, you will have them begging you to put up a flag.

The fact that you pay some kinda of dues gives you a voice within this community, express your opinions as often, and as loud as you can.

GO GET'UM!

Waterdog
 
Contact: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ http://www.drudgereport.com/ http://newsmax.com/

Someone might take an interest. I am not a lawyer, but the law is not about right and wrong. Get a lawyer. It will cost money to fight this. You have to ask yourself if it is worth the money. I bet that they have their legal side covered. Lawyers can be hired guns, but they always have some ammunition. Pay it, fight it, or pay it and fight it. You might be able to pay them and then go to small claims court and see if a judge will give you your money back. You need a lawyer.
 
Mike, my company offers free legal service (a list of lawyers on retainers) for initial consulatation and reduced rates for general services. I'll be taking advantage of this on Monday morning like you said. The reason why I didn't contact a lawyer right away is because I sent them a letter back and I ASSuMEd that they were going to be reasonable about this since I displayed the flag on only one day. If anything, I thought that they would reply with another letter asking for payment and not start legal actions so quickly. What would have happened if the first letter got lost in the mail? It wasn't sent certified. I think they are taking this whole thing too far and it looks like it's going to cost me some serious moeny in the process.

Coronach, I never lived in an association before. When I was having the house built, they by-laws were not yet established and it was explained to me that some reasonable rules were going to be established for the betterment of the community -- the stuff that I have seen is far from reasonable.

Gunslinger, I'm drafting up letters & e-mails right now even as I type this post.
 
FUD,

If your company doesn't have a real estate attorney on retainer, one who knows the HOA laws, do NOT pick from the list. Go outside.

The concept here is that you're not just looking at loosing $588. and some odd cents.

You're looking at loosing possibly over $100,000, depending on how much you paid for your house.

In most states, if your house is foreclosed through a judicial process not initiated by your mortgage company, YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MONTHLY LOAN PAYMENTS UNTIL IT IS PAID IN FULL!

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
we had a case in Fairfax VA a year or two ago where the HOA was going to sue over Christmas lights. The local TV station got wind of it & it created quite the stink. The case was dropped by the HOA.

Get a hair cut & a shave, cause you are going on the TV

dZ
 
A hair cut, a shave and a LAWYER. AND the media ... they are looking for opportunities to look less socialist than they usually do.
 
I would guess you like your freedoms, so what were you thinking when you bought that place?

Cut your losses and try to sell it to the most objectional person you can find ;)
 
Pay the $588. Write the check tomorrow and then forget about it. Sorry but you signed a contract and then violated a provision of the contract. :(
 
Equitable Servitudes are created generally by the contractor at the time the subdivision is made. The contractor slips a clause into the sales contract specifying a restriction on the use of the land. Now, if such restriction is clearly illegal, such as a proscription on the sale of the property to a minority, it can be overturned.

What is needed to be found is some sort of Federal or State law guarenteeing its citizen the right to display the US flag. If such a right exists, then it may be used to overturn said equitable servitude. Can't use the First Amendment right of Free Speech since that's a restriction against the government, not private parties. Can anybody help FUD on this?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Coronach, I never lived in an association before. When I was having the house built, they by-laws were not yet established and it was explained to me that some reasonable rules were going to be established for the betterment of the community [/quote]

That looks like your loophole, FUD. Talk to a lawyer first thing tomorrow morning. With luck, you may even be able to give them the whuppin' they deserve. :mad:

zook
 
FUD,
I really , truly, apologize if anything that I said got you into the deep stink. I sincerely believe it should be your right to fly the flag in your front yard if you so choose. That is your first amendment right to free speech , even if it is symbolic. I think it is a mound of fertilizer that they impose a code on you after the fact to which you have had no input. I also think it is legal grounds to absolve you.
I can't tell you what to do since it is your house and your wallet but I would suggest that you consult the legal council. Also contact those people that make their bread from the first amendment- newspapers and television stations- and have them run a story. How many people are going to want to move into a place that won't let you fly the American flag and how much money will the association lose due to the bad press? If they want to play dirty pool then so be it.
Once again, I'm sorry if me flapping my gums helped you into the cannibal's cookpot. I need to start wearing a mouthpiece so I don't accidentaly kick my own teeth out when I put my foot in my mouth.
PUBLIC NOTICE: I AM AN IDIOT. COMPLETELY DISREGARD ANYTHING I SAY.
This is the second post I've written but I deleted most of the first one due to inappropriate language.

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
FUD, Take down the flag and run up that gator and snake. If you can handle snow and some cold we need to get your butt up north so you can at least get some sleep.

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"In my opinion, anyone pushing through anti-gun legislation is a bloody traitor and should be sent up for treason" N.H. Stuart
 
Mornin'

Despite the rules and regs FUD, I still believe that you are being screwed.

Not being able to fly the national flag would the be the last straw for me.

Takin' donations?

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"
 
FUD,

I'm neither expert nor an attorney - just a fighter.

I suggest you first take advantage of the free legal service provided by your company.

Then, if you have ANY idea of fighting this, also consult an attorney who specializes in this field.

I fear you'll have to pay the HOA. If so, do so in a timely manner.

However, once you're straight with these tyrants, take it to the newspapers, TV, 60 minutes, the internet, NPR, Paul Harvey, Rush Limbaugh, and anywhere and everywhere you can. Document what happened with copies of all correspondence. Try to get public opinion on your side.

Show the world what petty tyrants these people have become. Show that your display of patriotism on the "Fourth of July" nearly cost you your family's home, etc. etc.

See if a sufficient number of your neighbors agree with you to justify starting a petition against your HOA. Determine if the HOA's terms of secrecy and inability to vote them out are legal, etc. Get legal help!

If the HOA committee has made their names public, *I* would put their names in every bit of correspondence that I write for public consumption. However, consult your attorney before you do that.

Do *nothing* that their attorney could call harassment or public humiliation. Stick to the facts rather than emotionalism. Remember also, that if you mis-state ANYthing in an article where you use their names those tyrants can prove you a liar and perhaps sue you.

Be careful. Get professional help - you are fighting other professionals.

Determine whether or not you want to be a member of their community. If you cause them enough trouble, you might be able to sell your home with the HOA covering the difference between the actual sale price and your required sale price. They might want to get rid of you rather than change or fight. Explore every possibility.

Good luck and keep us informed!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 10, 2000).]
 
FUD; Lifes a bitch and then you die. However in the meantime you can have some fun.

My advice is to get a good lawyer and if necessary pay the fine. Then the fun begins. As has been mentioned, get hold of everybody you can think of, presidents, senators, representatives, Limbaugh, Radio,TV, newspapers, Rotary, Kiwanis, everybody you can think of. George W Bush, George Herbert Walker Bush, Barbara Bush. Get as many people involved as you can. Name names dates, places. Get the story out.

Then wait. Enjoy your ten minutes. If you reach enough people, something will happen that will likely be unpleasant for the HOA.

Also, I would guess that TFL will become your ally and the folks here ARE a wealth of knowledge.
If I can help, let me know.

GOOD LUCK AND GIVE 'EM HELL FUD!

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
Apple a Day; Don't be so hard on yourself. Some things ARE worth the effort. It is doubtful that ALL of FUD's neighbors agree with this GROSS restriction and it is possible that all of the forthcoming furor will result in some changes.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
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