Open carry

[steve4102]

I open carry, my choice in MN.

I have practiced drawing my firearm both concealed and open, IME digging my firearm out of it's hiding place takes way to long. Hiding my firearm under layers of clothing concealing it from a potential BG does not out way the ease at which I can Access my Open Carry gun. YMMV

 

[DaleA]

Thanks SocialAnarchist for the description of your situation. Being known in your area is undoubtedly a good thing. That and a dose of common sense among those around you including law enforcement should make your life and everyone elses easier.

When the carry law in MN was being discussed someone tried open carry in the Twin Cities metro area and it was about 15 minutes before the police were questioning him about his actions and intent. I do NOT want to start a debate about THAT issue, we've had 'em here before, I am just saying that IS what happened and I'd be interested in what happens to SA too. I remain of the opinion that concealed is usually better than open carry but that's just me.

Good luck, SA.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Well, not sure about WI but many so-called 'open carry' states simply don't have a law disallowing the practice, allowing it by proxy. Just keep that in mind. You may still get a 'MWAG' call and accompanying Terry search and temporary detainment in front of a few dozen onlookers. It happened a couple years ago here in Louisville and almost happened to me in VA.

There is no such thing as allowing anything "by proxy." If there isn't a law prohibiting something, that something is legal. "Proxy" doesn't enter into the discussion.

Definition:

Full Definition of PROXY
1: the agency, function, or office of a deputy who acts as a substitute for another

2a: authority or power to act for another
b: a document giving such authority; specifically : a power of attorney authorizing a specified person to vote corporate stock

3: a person authorized to act for another : procurator

CA specifically banned the practice after OC groups got carried away with their outings.

On the other hand, Ohio didn't allow concealed carry. The Ohio Supreme Court ruled that the state constitution specifically enumerated a right to carry, and thus said that if concealed carry was banned open carry had to be allowed. So Ohioans began open carrying, and magically within a couple of years Ohio had a new law establishing a concealed carry license system. The usual suspects (tm) naturally predicted blood overflowing the gutters, which of course failed to materialize

 

[maestro]

I don't know where to start with this, so I'll start with a mini intro. I am SA's son. WI resident, same county,OC'd for well over a year before I got my CCL, OC'd in the same grocery store on an almost daily basis, as well as everywhere else I went. I carried (and when I OC, I still do), in a Fobus paddle holster.

Alright, let's get started. There will be a lot of specific's pertaining to Open carry in Wisconsin, and there will be a lot of personal opinion and experiences tied in as well. It will be broken up with my reply to each post I think needed some clarification, so if you don't want to read it all just look for your post.
I AM NOT TRYING TO BE ARROGANT OR OFFENSIVE. I just feel that people need to get the correct facts and information about OC in my area, with the addition of my personal experience to paint a clear picture.

MY CHOICES AND PREFERENCES DON'T HAVE TO BE YOUR CHOICES AND PREFERENCE. I am not saying that what I do will work for you in your area. On the flipside of that, YOU can't expect what works for YOU to be the ONLY thing that will work for everyone anywhere. YMMV.

Just out of curiosity, roughly what age are you and what's your appearance like?

I figured this was important for ME to address, so that you all can paint the picture of myself while I talk about my experiences later on. I'm 24, 6' tall, 260. Short hair, clean shaven or 5 o'clock shadow. My daily attire ranges anything from nice jeans, to BDU's, to Blauer/Dickie style EMS pants, to ratty jeans with more holes than denim left, with a tshirt, cut off, or hooded sweatshirt as my top. Normally in boots, but could be Crocs to sandals to tennis shoes as well.

And DaleA, as far as OC in our area, it has gone flawlessly for the last almost 2 years for me.

When they do say something it will most likely be in a panic phone call to the police so be ready to deal with them... Kinda wonder how it would go down now.

In our County, it doesn't happen. Dispatch, and the Deputies, have been informed about open carry in Wisconsin extensively over the last 4 or 5 years. There was actually a big ordeal about 4 years ago in one of our bigger cities, because the city ordinance was different from the way the State perceives open carry. So there was extensive training/discussions between LE Departments about the legality of open carry. All the Deputies I've ever spoken to while armed have never even mentioned my weapon, and I had an extensive conversation with our local Police Chief in the gas station one day while I was armed. We're very luck in this county to have a fairly educated police force on open carry.

That's not a very good holster in general, and it's terrible for open carry. It's floppy and has almost no retention.

I can't speak to the quality of the XDS holster, but I'm calling complete shenanigans on it being a terrible STYLE holster for open carry. I carried, and still do, in a Fobus paddle that is designed the same way with the same intent on retention. Situational awareness is the key. Isn't that what we all preach about any being defensive minded people? I don't care if you have a leather thumbreak holster, a 5.11 thumbdrive holster, or a SERPA style holster. If I want your gun, I will have your gun. It's that simple.

But by carrying in that holster in the meantime, you're exposing yourself to risk.

No more risk than by choosing not to carry because of the holster. Pretty sure if you needed your weapon to defend your wife, children, or own life, you'd rather have it in what you see as a sub-par holster, than think "Uh-oh, I left my gun at home today!" while your family is being harmed.

Tom has a great point about the holster. If I were going to open carry, a good leather holster with some type of retention would be my priority.

I disagree. Situational awareness is far more important to me than carrying in a retention holster. Like I said above, leather with retention, kydex with retention, whatever; If I want your gun I will have it. From a guy who open carried for over a year in a passive retention holster, not once did it fall out, not once was I not aware of my surroundings, and not once did I feel I was putting myself at risk for not having a strap over it or a piece of plastic that locked into the trigger guard.

Well, not sure about WI but many so-called 'open carry' states simply don't have a law disallowing the practice

Article 1, Section 25 of the WI State Constitution reads " The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose."

In April of 2009, our State Attorney General released a memo that said "¶1. Under Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, a person has the right to openly carry a firearm for any of the purposes enumerated in that Section, subject to reasonable regulation as discussed herein." In that same memo, he went on to say that "The Wisconsin Department of Justice (the Department) believes that the mere open carrying of a firearm by a person, absent additional facts and circumstances, should not result in a disorderly conduct charge from a prosecutor. " So while it specifically say "Open carry is legal," it does say the people of this state have the right to bear arms for security, defense, etc.

CA specifically banned the practice after OC groups got carried away with their outings.

There was a court case in February where the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned restrictions on carrying concealed weapons in California, and that has sparked a push back against lawmakers in CA to try and get OC legalized again. OC isn't specifically illegal statewide in CA. From opencarry.org "California is not a traditional open carry state. Open carry is generally prohibited except in unincorporated areas where the county has not made open carry illegal, or, pursuant to a CA open carry permit issued and valid only in a county with a population of less than 200,000 persons."

Now I do seem to remember a WI OC guy a few years ago getting a monetary settlement for getting arrested, so hopefully various over zealous LEO's got the memo.

That has happened a few times in the state actually, the big one being "The Madison 5" Culver's incident.

It still gives the BG the advantage since you've given up th element of suprise !!

More shenanigans. I've heard this argument literally hundreds of times. Show me the proof. Show me documented incidents where it was reported that an OC'er was shot, or the first person shot, at an incident. I've read more stories, been told face to face more stories, and can provide transcripts of such stories, just in WI about how merely OPEN CARRYING their pistol, having their pistol OPENLY VISIBLE on their hip, has diffused more situations than it has made them victims. I'm not in favor of OC over CC. I'm in favor of using actual facts and evidence to back up a standpoint. (Which I can provide if you'd like.)

With as many thing gone so wrong will leos any more my worry leans more toward a stressed out or or over zealous officer showing up with pistol draw ready to shot first.

Be polite, be courteous, keep your damn hand away from your weapon, be knowledgeable of your state laws pertaining to open carry and there won't be a single problem. If you dress like a drug dealing meth head and OC a pistol, yeah you're gonna have a bad day. If you dress like an everyday blue collar/white collar guy, and aren't rude to the LEO, you won't have a problem.

There is a real element of risk in the possibility of a gun grab. Carrying in a holster with no retention increases that risk.

Disagree completely. Poor situational awareness will create a much higher risk for a gun grab than having a holster with passive retention. I've run drills on this with my friends and family, people I TRUST. I've told them in the morning "Hey, throughout the day try and grab my gun from holster. Be sneaky, be obvious, I don't care, just don't TELL me you're going to do it." And not a single one of them could do it. The thing other than situational awareness is to know how to react if you are caught off guard, know how to resist the gun grab and retain your weapon. A pancake holster with a thumbreak is just as easy to gun grab from as a kydex holster with passive retention.

Though carry in a less-than-perfect holster could increase the risk of a "gun grab", not carrying due to the lack of a better holster also carries a risk. You have the risk of losing control of your firearm versus the risk of not having your firearm when you may need it; consequences could range from financial loss to the loss of your life.

Financial loss to the loss of you life is a risk everyday, regardless if you OC, CC, or don't carry. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it than not have it. Even if the holster I choose to carry in doesn't please the gun community of the internet. If you maintain situational awareness, and are aware of counter measures of a potential gun grab, there's no problem carrying in a passive retention holster.

Something tells me that an idiot thug intent on attempting to FORCIBLY TAKE A LOADED GUN FROM YOU doesn't care if there is a retention holster involved or not. That idiot might not even know what the difference is. Either the open-carrier is a weak target and falling-down drunk, or the guy attempting to disarm him has an IQ below 75 and is going to try it no matter what.

Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself.

If the purpose of carrying a gun is to reduce risk, it doesn't make much sense to introduce an element of risk back into the equation.

Unless you need your gun, and you chose not to carry it because you didn't have the holster of your choice, and were stuck using something that you deem inferior that other people carry in with no problem on a daily basis. Have and not need, over need and not have, regardless of whatever holster I have.

I open carry on occasion and have never been bothered. That is not to say it can't happen though.

I open carry, my choice in MN.

Good for you both. It's nice to have the option to carry how you choose.

I have practiced drawing my firearm both concealed and open, IME digging my firearm out of it's hiding place takes way to long. Hiding my firearm under layers of clothing concealing it from a potential BG does not out way the ease at which I can Access my Open Carry gun. YMMV

Couldn't have said it better myself. My carry method changes with the weather and how many layers I have on for that specific reason, the time it takes to dig it out of concealment with heavy winter clothes on doesn't outweigh my open carrying.

I am NOT trying to come on here, and be a jerk. I love a good debate, and a lot of you posted a lot of things that I disagree with that I could spark a good debate from. I sincerely do not intend to offend anyone with my replies, however just like everyone else I have my own personal opinions, and experiences, and a lot of time researching this topic.

 

[Tom Servo]

Disagree completely. Poor situational awareness will create a much higher risk for a gun grab than having a holster with passive retention. I've run drills on this with my friends and family, people I TRUST.

There are a couple of problems with this approach.

First off, I don't carry a gun to protect me from people I trust. I carry one because there are violent, brutal people out there. Those people aren't going to be polite or give me warning, and they're probably stronger and tougher than I am. Those are the folks who disarm police officers, who are trained in retention. Against someone like that, the average civilian doesn't have much of a chance.

Second, perfect situational awareness isn't possible. I can't monitor everyone if I'm in the middle of a crowd.

 

[buck460XVR]

I'm from Wisconsin also. Have my CWC permit, but occasionally still open carry too. Regardless of where I go while OC, I have yet to have anyone take a second glance other than to say "nice lookin' rig". But then....this is Wisconsin. Folks on these forums continuously preach that we as gun owners should have a choice and should be shown respect for that choice. Then those same folks want to be overly critical of others when choices don't mirror theirs. If you are in the foothills of the Appalachians, odds are you don't have a clue as to what the OC laws are and how folks react to OC in Wisconsin. If you have never opened carry, you probably don't have a clue as to which holster works well for someone else, nor do you really have any experience with gun grabbing bad guys....only perceptions.

SocialAnarchist has made a decision about OC based on his experience, the laws of his state and the attitudes of the community he lives in. Odds are, unlike some are trying to claim, he knows what is best for him giving the options he has. He does not have a CWC permit, nor does he have another holster at the moment. He knows what his limitations are and carries accordingly. Odds are, his awareness, his proficiency with his weapon and his familiarity with his surroundings is going to benefit him more than advice from those that know nothing at all about his situation. His life, his safety....his choice. Get over it.

 

[steve4102]

^^^ and there ya go^^^
Nice post.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Why does the disarm always start with a wrestling match over your retention holster?

Why doesn't a bad guy who wants another gun start the fight with a surprise knife attack from close range?

Why not simply shoot you? It's not like bad guys don't have guns.

So if you OC where you don't really mix with true bad guys - what's the point?

Why is the retention wrestling match always with one opponent? What if two guys attack? One beats you with a brick while the other goes for your gun. Yes, on the TV - highly trained folks fend off two folks with apparent ease.

30 ish % of cops are shot with their own guns. Think about it. Yes, it won't happen to you, you are better.

I live in heat so don't give me the comfort hot weather story either.

 

[SocialAnarchist]

I must admit I smile and sometimes openly chuckle at what this topic has become. I more or less just wanted to say I open carried with no harassment or difficulties.

In a few weeks I will get my CCW and probably not open carry much at all anymore. But for now my options are, don't carry because you don't like the holster I have, concealed carry and break the law, don't carry at all, or continue as is until my CCW comes though.

Considering some of you carry into the bathroom in your own homes it seems illogical for you to expect me to stop open carrying when I see the need. I looked at Gander Mountain yesterday and frankly not a single holster I saw there fit my needs in a price range I was willing to spend.

So what would you have me do in the meantime?

 

[Tom Servo]

I looked at Gander Mountain yesterday and frankly not a single holster I saw there fit my needs in a price range I was willing to spend.

I've heard this argument before regarding guns, ammunition, and yes, holsters. I'm willing to spend a pretty decent amount of money when it comes to self-protection. It might be an extra $30 for decent carry gear or ammunition, but it's going to be priceless when Torgo comes running at me with a piece of rebar in his hands and murder in his heart.

This brings me back to my original point: why do we carry guns? If it's for self-protection, the user really needs to set and meet priorities. If we're to be serious about it, that means getting training, even if it's inconvenient and expensive. It also means selecting the right hardware. This isn't an area of my life I'm going to be miserly on.

 

[45_auto]

I've run drills on this with my friends and family, people I TRUST. I've told them in the morning "Hey, throughout the day try and grab my gun from holster. Be sneaky, be obvious, I don't care, just don't TELL me you're going to do it." And not a single one of them could do it.

Has it really never ocurred to you that the people you trust aren't willing to bury their thumbs in your eyes, crush your trachea, or break your wrist or all of your fingers?

There's a BIG difference between a "play" grab where people aren't willing to hurt each other and a real grab where the bad guy isn't worried about hurting you. Hopefully you'll never experience the difference.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good point - will your trusted opponents stab you at the start of the exercise? Do you have a referee monitoring the action that rules you incapacitated?

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Considering some of you carry into the bathroom in your own homes it seems illogical for you to expect me to stop open carrying when I see the need. I looked at Gander Mountain yesterday and frankly not a single holster I saw there fit my needs in a price range I was willing to spend.

So what would you have me do in the meantime?

Carrying in your bathroom at home has nothing whatsoever to do with carrying in a manner that exposes you to more risk than necessary simply because you're unwilling to spend $45 on a holster. Almost all, if not all, Gander Mountains carry the BlackHawk Serpa. It's not the greatest holster in the history of the world but AT LEAST it has positive retention. It's also a perfectly functional concealed holster.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Why does the disarm always start with a wrestling match over your retention holster?

Why doesn't a bad guy who wants another gun start the fight with a surprise knife attack from close range?"

Why, that's the way it ALWAYS happens!

If I were to be a nefarious person, and I wanted an open carrier's gun, I'd simply introduce Mr. Rock to Mr. Skull.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, can exercise 100% absoulte situational awareness at all times.

A momentary lapse is all that's required to become a statistic.

 

[SocialAnarchist]

If the holster I am using is so bad why are there dozens of similar models on the shelf at Gander and other stores that sell firearms? If bad guys grabbing guns was so prevalent why do none of them have retention straps?

I realize that this is going to sound argumentative and well, it is what it is. Frankly, being called miserly, or cheap, or whatever, is really helpful. Perhaps some of you could calm down enough to offer some serious, quality, suggestions for holsters, other than something that is " not the greatest holster in the history of the world but AT LEAST it has positive retention. It's also a perfectly functional concealed holster." Why would I spend money on something, that from your description, I would probably be dissatisfied with? To be honest I don't have a problem with spending the money for a good holster, but I want something made for my pistol, that will hold it comfortably against my body, and that will last. I made a $5 mistake at a gun show for a concealed carry holster that is essentially a leather pad with a loop on it. It is miserably uncomfortable and I don't like how it secures my pistol.

Frankly, the truth is all this topic has done is make me wonder why anyone carries. Because it sounds like most of you spend so much time worrying about losing your gun that you probably walk around looking nervous and that draws attention. I walked through the store with my gun obviously visible, did my business as usual and left. No one said anything, I didn't draw attention to myself by touching my gun to make sure it was still there, and left after shopping with no problems. Would I open carry like that in Madison or Milwaukee? Probably not, but then again I legally couldn't conceal carry in more places than I could there so then what?

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

 

[maestro]

First off, I don't carry a gun to protect me from people I trust. I carry one because there are violent, brutal people out there. Those people aren't going to be polite or give me warning, and they're probably stronger and tougher than I am. Those are the folks who disarm police officers, who are trained in retention. Against someone like that, the average civilian doesn't have much of a chance.

And those are the people that I was talking about I said it doesn't matter if you have a passive retention, thumb break, SERPA, thumbdrive, etc holster, if they WANT your gun, they will HAVE you gun. If they are the guys grabbing a LEO's weapon, who is using at least a level II if not level III retention holster, then what makes you think having an active retention holster as a civilian will make you any safer than a passive retention holster.

Second, perfect situational awareness isn't possible. I can't monitor everyone if I'm in the middle of a crowd.

And I guess this is where your actions differ from my actions, and our definition of situational awareness changes a little. Never, not once, did I put myself in the middle of a crowd while I was open carrying. I stayed along the edges, left myself an escape route, etc. I do the same thing now that I CC. Situational awareness isn't just about knowing what's going on around you, it's not putting you into the situations where you're UNABLE to know what's going on around you.

I'm from Wisconsin also. Have my CWC permit, but occasionally still open carry too. Regardless of where I go while OC, I have yet to have anyone take a second glance other than to say "nice lookin' rig". But then....this is Wisconsin.

Exactly, same experiences regardless of where I've been.
Folks on these forums continuously preach that we as gun owners should have a choice and should be shown respect for that choice. Then those same folks want to be overly critical of others when choices don't mirror theirs.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I FELT COMPELLED TO POST HERE We are all supposed to be on the same side, we are all in support of our rights to own, and carry firearms, yet we are the first ones to rip each other apart because Steve doesn't like what Tom's doing, who doesn't like what Harry is doing, who doesn't like what Dick is doing. WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE HERE PEOPLE. Just because I don't carry how you deem appropriate doesn't mean that I haven't trained and practice with the way I carry.

If you are in the foothills of the Appalachians, odds are you don't have a clue as to what the OC laws are and how folks react to OC in Wisconsin. If you have never opened carry, you probably don't have a clue as to which holster works well for someone else, nor do you really have any experience with gun grabbing bad guys....only perceptions.
Amen. Again, absolutely why I posted here. There's a huge difference between experience and perception.

SocialAnarchist has made a decision about OC based on his experience, the laws of his state and the attitudes of the community he lives in. Odds are, unlike some are trying to claim, he knows what is best for him giving the options he has. He does not have a CWC permit, nor does he have another holster at the moment. He knows what his limitations are and carries accordingly. Odds are, his awareness, his proficiency with his weapon and his familiarity with his surroundings is going to benefit him more than advice from those that know nothing at all about his situation. His life, his safety....his choice. Get over it.

Spot on post Buck, spot on.

Why does the disarm always start with a wrestling match over your retention holster?

I didn't say it always did. That was just the scenario I inferred from the previous posts here.

Why doesn't a bad guy who wants another gun start the fight with a surprise knife attack from close range?

Okay fine, it's starts with a knife attack. Attacker comes in, stabs the OC'er, takes his gun. First off, if I'm in a store or standing in line at the gas station and I hear the door dinger go off, I turn to look EVERY TIME to see who's coming in, so there was error number 1.

Here's another scenario. Attacker comes in, stabs the last guy in line who happens to be a CC'er. As the CC'er falls to the ground, his concealment garment uncovers his pistol, attacker sees it and takes it. Attacker STILL HAS SAID GUN.

Why not simply shoot you? It's not like bad guys don't have guns.

Any bad guy intent on ACTUAL killing people, whether it be during a home invasion or a gas station robbery, is going to kill you regardless of if you have a gun openly displayed, because he's already made the decision to make kill before he even noticed you. Your average, AVERAGE, not hardened repeat murder offender, criminal who is going to show up to rip off the gas station clerk is going to do a 180 and walk away if he sees any sort of possible confrontation. The common criminal ripping off a gas station or a grocery store doesn't want any more confrontation than that of taking the money from the cashier. Why do you think there are stories of people drawing their weapons and not having to fire?

So if you OC where you don't really mix with true bad guys - what's the point?

So if you carry your gun your whole life and never fire it, what's the point? If your a LEO who carried a gun for 30 years on the job and never fire a shot, what's the point? What you're trying to say is borderline on the anti's argument.

Why is the retention wrestling match always with one opponent? What if two guys attack? One beats you with a brick while the other goes for your gun. Yes, on the TV - highly trained folks fend off two folks with apparent ease.

What's the difference if two guys attack you while your open carrying versus two guys attacking you while your concealed carrying? In either case you're never going to have the chance to use your gun, and I'd bet as you unconsciously fall to the ground, they're going to search you for your wallet or keys and what not and find your weapon regardless of the fact you were CC'ing 45 seconds ago.

30 ish % of cops are shot with their own guns. Think about it. Yes, it won't happen to you, you are better.

And people with stairs in their home have a 90% greater risk of falling down the stairs and breaking their neck than someone without stairs in their home. Someone with a swimming pool has a 75% higher chance of drowning in a swimming pool than someone who doesn't have one. What's your point? You think you don't take the risk of your weapon being snatched just because you conceal? LEO's use a level II or III retention holster, and you're saying that 30% of them are shot with their own guns. So........ if a trained LEO is getting is gun grabbed, and he has a level II holster on his belt, what difference does it make if I carry in a passive retention holster? By your logic I'm going to be dead anyway.

I live in heat so don't give me the comfort hot weather story either.

I don't have to give you any sort of story. I don't care if you don't like the fact that I PERSONALLY change up the way I carry based on the weather, and you're superman and carry it the same way all year round. When I started OC'ing, and the CC'ing, I didn't change my wardrobe and all. I don't where a jacket in the summer, or a concealed carry vest, or a shirt that's 3 sizes too long for me. You think any criminal that's gonna snatch my OC weapon isn't going to realize that the guy standing next to me in a tan vest that comes down below is pockets doesn't have a gun either?

This brings me back to my original point: why do we carry guns? If it's for self-protection, the user really needs to set and meet priorities.
BUT YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT!! YOUR priorities don't have to be MY priorities don't have to be SA's priorities don't have to be MASSAD AYOOBS priorities. Contrary to what you keep saying here, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Each person's carry set up is going to be different from the next, will be different from the next. Just because you do things the way that YOU like to do things, doesn't mean that it is THE ONLY WAY, or the RIGHT way to do things! Do what you do, that works for you, but don't tell everyone that it is the only way to do it.

Has it really never ocurred to you that the people you trust aren't willing to bury their thumbs in your eyes, crush your trachea, or break your wrist or all of your fingers?

Has it ever really occurred to you that if an unknown assailant comes up and surprises you, and buries their thumbs in your eyes, crushes your trachea, or breaks your wrist or all of you fingers, that they are GOING TO END UP WITH YOUR WEAPON REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU ARE CARRYING IT?

Please, tell me how while you're laying on the ground unable to see, breathe, or move your hands, you're going to be able to stop an assailant from getting your weapon from your IWB holster, OWB holster, level I, II, III, level 17 retention holster?

[QUOTE-Glen E. Meyer]Good point - will your trusted opponents stab you at the start of the exercise?

Hm, I don't know. Will you be able to maintain control of your weapon if an unknown assailant stabs you at the start of his attack? Will you be able to maintain your weapon if your opponent comes up and slices your trachea or carotid arteries?

So what would you have me do in the meantime?

Carry how YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE carrying. It doesn't matter what I say, what the guy at the gun store says, or what anyone on here says. The way that YOU carry YOUR weapon for defense of YOUR life and YOUR family, is YOUR choice.

Regardless of what it sounds like to anyone I've replied to, I'm not coming on here to try and tell you that the way you do things is wrong, and the only right way is my way. My biggest frustration after reading this thread, and the reason I came here and posted, is to try to get people to realize that WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE!.Regardless of how each of us carry, or don't carry, we need to be SUPPORTIVE of each others rights, and stand together for them. There is a huge, HUGE difference between coming here and telling someone who said they OC'd in a passive retention holster that they are essential an idiot and are going to end up dead, and say "well, ya know, I'm glad that you're deciding to carry, but instead of using holster ABC, have you thought about holster XYZ?"

Carry on, carry often, carry what works for you, and support others right to carry how they choose, even if it differs from the way you carry. That's the message that I've been trying to spit out here.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

If the holster I am using is so bad why are there dozens of similar models on the shelf at Gander and other stores that sell firearms? If bad guys grabbing guns was so prevalent why do none of them have retention straps?

Because they don't care, there's no law requiring that they only sell "Good for Open Carry" holsters and because the holster could be used for dozens of other activities besides Open Carry in populated environments?

I realize that this is going to sound argumentative and well, it is what it is. Frankly, being called miserly, or cheap, or whatever, is really helpful. Perhaps some of you could calm down enough to offer some serious, quality, suggestions for holsters, other than something that is " not the greatest holster in the history of the world but AT LEAST it has positive retention. It's also a perfectly functional concealed holster." Why would I spend money on something, that from your description, I would probably be dissatisfied with? To be honest I don't have a problem with spending the money for a good holster, but I want something made for my pistol, that will hold it comfortably against my body, and that will last. I made a $5 mistake at a gun show for a concealed carry holster that is essentially a leather pad with a loop on it. It is miserably uncomfortable and I don't like how it secures my pistol.

I can't imagine how you took "You won't be happy with it." from my description. That would be a very strange take-away, since I did not say nor even imply any such thing. Not being the greatest holster in the world isn't saying a whole lot, is it? There's only one "greatest" and I guarantee there's no consensus. Every other holster ever made is "not the greatest holster in the world".

Fact is, I have a BlackHawk Serpa and it has become my daily carry holster (I have it on right now.) except in circumstances that require a tucked shirt. I'm very happy with it.

 

[NavyVet1959]

I recently drove from SE Texas to SoCal for a business trip. Of course, HALF of the trip is just getting out of Texas, so I had to carry concealed and I really didn't think anything of it. Didn't really think anything of it in New Mexico either since the weather was still somewhat cool when I refueled, but when I hit Yuma in Arizona, the temperature was in the upper 90s and I could definitely see why open carry makes a lot of sense there. Even adding a vest as a cover garment is more than I would want to be wearing in AZ during the summer. I can see a definite reason for open carry in places like that and I like at least having the option to carry that way. Of course, AZ also has "Constitutional Carry", so you don't even have to have a CHL to carry. Apparently, only 5 states so far have Constitutional Carry.

http://my.opencarry.org/?page_id=164

 

[maestro]

Almost all, if not all, Gander Mountains carry the BlackHawk Serpa. It's not the greatest holster in the history of the world but AT LEAST it has positive retention. It's also a perfectly functional concealed holster.

And in a panic you run the risk of pulling up to hard and being unable to press the release button until you reset everything. If you're fully aware of what you're doing and how much pressure you're applying to the button and where your trigger finger is going, you run the risk of a negligent discharge. Search youtube for Tex Grebner, search youtube for SERPA flaw, search the internet for SERPA flaw. There are instructors at various tactical training schools that advocate against using the SERPA style holster for the reasons I listed about. So, FOR ME, no thanks.

Because they don't care, there's no law requiring that they only sell "Good for Open Carry" holsters and because the holster could be used for dozens of other activities besides Open Carry in populated environments?

So why do YOU care then? What difference does it make to you how someone you will probably never meet, carries their weapon? Why does everyone else have to do what YOU deem to be acceptable? Why can't YOU carry how you want, someone ELSE carry how they want, and just be united in the fact that you are both exercising your rights?

I can't imagine how you took "You won't be happy with it." from my description. That would be a very strange take-away, since I did not say nor even imply any such thing. Not being the greatest holster in the world isn't saying a whole lot, is it? There's only one "greatest" and I guarantee there's no consensus. Every other holster ever made is "not the greatest holster in the world".

I could never imagine why he took "You won't be happy with it" from your description. Oh, maybe because you said " It's not the greatest holster in the history of the world." Maybe because instead of offering some friendly suggestions at first, everyone jumped down his throat for carrying the holster that HE wants to carry in and that HE thinks is comfortable. Hm, I just don't know why he would think that.....

Fact is, I have a BlackHawk Serpa and it has become my daily carry holster (I have it on right now.) except in circumstances that require a tucked shirt. I'm very happy with it.

Good for you. I had a SERPA and hated it, I sold it 3 days after I bought it. I have a Fobus paddle holster on at the moment, and when I'm not wearing my hybrid IWB holster, it's my daily carry holster. I wore it for over a year, and *GASP* no one ever tried to take my weapon.

If I were to be a nefarious person, and I wanted an open carrier's gun, I'd simply introduce Mr. Rock to Mr. Skull.

If I were to be a nefarious person, and I wanted your wallet, I'd simply introduce Mr. Rock to Mr. Skull. What's your point? Do you not carry your wallet because someone might take it?

No one, and I mean NO ONE, can exercise 100% absoulte situational awareness at all times.

A momentary lapse is all that's required to become a statistic.

I guess we should just all stay home and lock our doors then. It doesn't matter if you OC, CC, don't carry, walk around with armed security or live in an indestructible bubble. Yes, you're succeptable to danger. So why does it matter how someone else carries?


Good Lord. I post to a lot of different gun forums, and I've never encountered a more divided, arrogant group of gun/carry advocates than I have in this thread. Seriously, are we not all supposed to be on the same side? Are we not all suppose to be in this fight together?

The conversation here should have been "I'm glad your carrying SA. Personally I wouldn't carry in that holster, look at holsters X, Y, and Z, and see if that would be something you're interested in. Regardless, I'm pleased to see someone exercising their Constitutional Rights." But instead, you all immediately jumped to saying that his holster was garbage, his weapon is going to get stolen, he's going to die, and the world will end. Yeah, that really seems like a group of people who support the Second Amendment, individual rights, and supports peoples abilities to exercise them.....

SA is right, after reading this, I wonder why any of you carry, or any of you leave your houses. You're so worried about weapon retention and becoming a victim, that I'm amazed your anxiety doesn't keep you all in bed in the morning. At least I understand why it's called thefiringline.com...

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I guess we should just all stay home and lock our doors then."

No, no, not at all. It's so pointless and hopeless that you should take your gun, screw it into your ear and...

reductio ad absurdum much there, maestro?

In reading through many of these responses, I get the inescapable feeling that far too many here think of themselves in terms of...

I AM SUPERDOOPER HYPER AGENT NINJA MAN! NONE SHALL ESCAPE MY NOTICE! NONE SHALL ENCROACH UPON MY CIRCLE OF ABSOLUTE AWARENESS!

Yeah. OK. Whatever. Maybe y'all can sell that concept to Stan Lee as a new superhero.

Otherwise, it's a bunch of twaddle.


"You're so worried about weapon retention and becoming a victim, that I'm amazed your anxiety doesn't keep you all in bed in the morning."

The flipside of that is, of course, unrealistic confidence bordering on, or becoming, narcissistic arrogance.

History is littered with examples of of individuals who get so caught up in their own myth making that they never see the kill punch coming.

A stellar example of that?

Douglas MacArthur's expedition to the Yalu River.


Can you realistically say to me, or anyone, that you can have, and maintain, 100% situational awareness at all times to the degree that it would negate being ambushed?

If you can, then please see Mr. Lee immediately.