Open Carry Vs. Concealed carry
- Thread starter MyXD40
- Start date
Glenn, I apologize in not getting back to this thread sooner, as your question deserved a timely and thoughtful answer.
My argument was less clear than what I intended. What I should have said:
Those that CC and oppose OC are in fact helping to bring about complete the disarming of the people. How? Since the mid to late 19th century, most States passed laws restricting the ability of citizens to carry concealed. Too, many States (and individual jurisdictions where allowed) were also passing laws limiting the ability of citizens to carry openly.
To expand upon that thought:
A few States and their Supreme Courts, continued to allow open carry as a fundamental right. However, in much of the US, it passed out of common practice and hence out of favor.
Fast forward to the late 1980's, where "shall issue" licensing became to be widespread.
It is this acceptance of licensing and the common opposition to open carry that parallels (though not a precise parallel) the early 1920's to the mid 1040's with licensing of citizens and their private transportation (something that was initially only used to regulate commercial transport) and the acceptance of the populace of the licensing. A populace that began to oppose unlicensed driving. We lost a fundamental right to travel and it's corollary right to use whatever means of travel we wanted in non-commercial travel over public roads and highways.
You must meet the minimum requirements of a particular States licensing scheme and your Drivers License is "shall issue." Does any of this sound familiar? Read on...
Reciprocity issues with other states were settled the same exact way that reciprocity with CC permits are now being instituted. The Federal Government had and has no involvement with either of these licensing and reciprocity issues, then or now.
Read any gun-board that deals with issues such as open carry v. concealed carry and you will find the same arguments used in this thread. Both for and against. With very little editing, the same arguments were used in drivers licenses and why you should be licensed as opposed to just driving without paying the state a fee for a permission to do what you had a legal right to do.
Now, juxtapose the licensing requirements for guns in general (in some States) and concealed carry in particular.
How many people think that all guns must be licensed in order to even own them? Even in States where such is not a legal issue, the average person still thinks that gunowners must have some sort of license. After all, we license drivers, why not those that carry guns? Isn't that the uninformed argument?
So then the question becomes, how long before the rest of the States fall into line and require a license for any carry? A subsidiary question is, how long before all guns must be registered, just like vehicles must be?
So how long, before the logical progression of governmental regulation, catches up to gun owners, the way it has with people who own and drive vehicles (which is basicly everyone)?
Hence my reasoning that those who espouse CC and oppose OC are helping to defeat a basic and fundamental right. Carrying a firearm for personal protection should not be restricted to only those that can meet the criteria of the State for a license, which is often times prohibitive in cost to lower income people.
And thus, the people become disarmed.
While the driving/travel analogy isn't exact, it is instructive.Glenn E. Meyer said:
My argument was less clear than what I intended. What I should have said:
Those that CC and oppose OC are in fact helping to bring about complete the disarming of the people. How? Since the mid to late 19th century, most States passed laws restricting the ability of citizens to carry concealed. Too, many States (and individual jurisdictions where allowed) were also passing laws limiting the ability of citizens to carry openly.
To expand upon that thought:
A few States and their Supreme Courts, continued to allow open carry as a fundamental right. However, in much of the US, it passed out of common practice and hence out of favor.
Fast forward to the late 1980's, where "shall issue" licensing became to be widespread.
It is this acceptance of licensing and the common opposition to open carry that parallels (though not a precise parallel) the early 1920's to the mid 1040's with licensing of citizens and their private transportation (something that was initially only used to regulate commercial transport) and the acceptance of the populace of the licensing. A populace that began to oppose unlicensed driving. We lost a fundamental right to travel and it's corollary right to use whatever means of travel we wanted in non-commercial travel over public roads and highways.
You must meet the minimum requirements of a particular States licensing scheme and your Drivers License is "shall issue." Does any of this sound familiar? Read on...
Reciprocity issues with other states were settled the same exact way that reciprocity with CC permits are now being instituted. The Federal Government had and has no involvement with either of these licensing and reciprocity issues, then or now.
Read any gun-board that deals with issues such as open carry v. concealed carry and you will find the same arguments used in this thread. Both for and against. With very little editing, the same arguments were used in drivers licenses and why you should be licensed as opposed to just driving without paying the state a fee for a permission to do what you had a legal right to do.
Now, juxtapose the licensing requirements for guns in general (in some States) and concealed carry in particular.
How many people think that all guns must be licensed in order to even own them? Even in States where such is not a legal issue, the average person still thinks that gunowners must have some sort of license. After all, we license drivers, why not those that carry guns? Isn't that the uninformed argument?
So then the question becomes, how long before the rest of the States fall into line and require a license for any carry? A subsidiary question is, how long before all guns must be registered, just like vehicles must be?
So how long, before the logical progression of governmental regulation, catches up to gun owners, the way it has with people who own and drive vehicles (which is basicly everyone)?
Hence my reasoning that those who espouse CC and oppose OC are helping to defeat a basic and fundamental right. Carrying a firearm for personal protection should not be restricted to only those that can meet the criteria of the State for a license, which is often times prohibitive in cost to lower income people.
And thus, the people become disarmed.
WhiteFeather93
New member
Very good post Antipitas.
Antipitas's point is that anything can be spun to sound good and turn out horribly bad. And if you think attempts to make only the social elite armed aren't going to be made think again they already have.
http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html
California has recently passed legislation requiring Microstamping of hanguns.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1426669020071014?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews
Not only will this drive up the cost of firearms but many firearm makers are warning that this legislation will cause them to choose not to sell their product in California. Thus without even banning firearms California will have done so.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51254
You may not like the idea of OC and feel that it gives up some "Tactical Advantage." imagined or not but by concealing your right, you conceal the truth from those need to learn it before it is too late.
P.S. Some people already think carrying a firearm for protection is "in bad class and tasteless." concealed or not.
P.P.S. Just don't let our country end up like this...
http://www.weaponvideos.org/viewvideo/259/Gun_bans_in_the_UK__NRA_/
Antipitas's point is that anything can be spun to sound good and turn out horribly bad. And if you think attempts to make only the social elite armed aren't going to be made think again they already have.
http://www.gunlawnews.org/sullivan.html
California has recently passed legislation requiring Microstamping of hanguns.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1426669020071014?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews
Not only will this drive up the cost of firearms but many firearm makers are warning that this legislation will cause them to choose not to sell their product in California. Thus without even banning firearms California will have done so.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51254
You may not like the idea of OC and feel that it gives up some "Tactical Advantage." imagined or not but by concealing your right, you conceal the truth from those need to learn it before it is too late.
P.S. Some people already think carrying a firearm for protection is "in bad class and tasteless." concealed or not.
P.P.S. Just don't let our country end up like this...
http://www.weaponvideos.org/viewvideo/259/Gun_bans_in_the_UK__NRA_/
orionengnr
New member
I don't have the option of OC here
When I do, I'll have to reconsider my vote.
When I do, I'll have to reconsider my vote.
Silentarmy
New member
LOL
I must admit that I laughed audibly when I read there was an "Open Carry Forum". I guess it would be nice to go somewhere where your 18th century tactics were accepted by a few others! Having been a Range officer in the past, I know there are enough Scary Morons carrying concealed that if those same disturbed individuals were packing in plain view, it would take only months for our gun rights to dissappear! I dealt with enough Mentally unsound people as they applied for their permits that I carry concealed as much in fear that they may have actually passed and got their permits! Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig!
I must admit that I laughed audibly when I read there was an "Open Carry Forum". I guess it would be nice to go somewhere where your 18th century tactics were accepted by a few others! Having been a Range officer in the past, I know there are enough Scary Morons carrying concealed that if those same disturbed individuals were packing in plain view, it would take only months for our gun rights to dissappear! I dealt with enough Mentally unsound people as they applied for their permits that I carry concealed as much in fear that they may have actually passed and got their permits! Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig!Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Dear Al:
Thanks so much for clarifying your position. It makes a lot of sense. I think that open carry should be legal. Whether one chooses to, for various reasons, is a personal choice.
I agree that laws against carry were part of the general trend to take away gun carrying and possession rights. The irony is the point I was trying to make that the shall issue movement was an incremental step to weaken those absolute bans and raise RKBA issues for the general public.
Thanks so much for clarifying your position. It makes a lot of sense. I think that open carry should be legal. Whether one chooses to, for various reasons, is a personal choice.
I agree that laws against carry were part of the general trend to take away gun carrying and possession rights. The irony is the point I was trying to make that the shall issue movement was an incremental step to weaken those absolute bans and raise RKBA issues for the general public.
What happens when you stumble across someone like me who wears the same holster for open carry as I do for concealed with the only difference being the absense of a cover garment?
Unless you are playing the part of the offense and thus presenting a weapon first I can draw defensively just as fast if not faster than you simply due to the absense of a cover garment.
At first I took offense at your "cowboy rig" remark. But upon reflection I realized that it was such a silly remark that no one could really be offended. I guess you never saw the rig that Jeff Cooper used to wear with his famous two tone Colt Commander. And I seriously doubt you ever been to a CAS event. For if you had you wouldn't be so dang smug in your boasting. Some of those gents (and ladies) and draw and fire pretty damn fast.
03Shadowbob
New member
Yeah, I have to disagree with anyone that says he can draw from concealed just as fast or faster than he can from open carry. Concealed carry adds an additional step that does take time.
As far as open carry issues, I don't think it is tactically wise to open carry in most circumstances for reasons mentioned before this post, however I think it should be a personal decision not a government decision.
As far as open carry issues, I don't think it is tactically wise to open carry in most circumstances for reasons mentioned before this post, however I think it should be a personal decision not a government decision.
Ok
I think I have to disagree with open carry being a faux pas. Some places it is fine by me. I do not agree with the moron goign around just to be obnoxious about it and stir stuff up, but it has its place, just like anything else. I do not because I live in Texas and it is illegal, but if I lived in AZ (it is legal there I believe) I certainly would carry open. I guess I have been around guns enough and carry them for work all the time that I do not really see it as an issue either way. Unfortunately, there are enough people around who are scared by a gun that it makes things hard for the rest of us.
I think I have to disagree with open carry being a faux pas. Some places it is fine by me. I do not agree with the moron goign around just to be obnoxious about it and stir stuff up, but it has its place, just like anything else. I do not because I live in Texas and it is illegal, but if I lived in AZ (it is legal there I believe) I certainly would carry open. I guess I have been around guns enough and carry them for work all the time that I do not really see it as an issue either way. Unfortunately, there are enough people around who are scared by a gun that it makes things hard for the rest of us.
social acceptable around my area in north Denver area, as well as south Denver, east Denver, o0 and west Denver. The area of which you live in says a lot.
AND anytime you wish to hit the range up with me one day, you conceal, I open, and I promise you that I'll hit my taret faster than you will from concealed. oh, and my hole will be in the X range, or head shot if you perfer
$500 cash bet, easy win, for me 
ANYWAY
the last few weeks sense I've started this post, I've been conceal carrying. No holster, just, mexican waistband-ing it? if that's what its called..between my belt and pants, right above my ass crack. It's actually quite comfortable. Sitting in the truck, walking around..my only problem is my draw. When I draw it from that position my grip on the gun is about an inch lower than where my hand should be.
..I know this becasue I was at walmart, and I wanted to see how fast I could draw from concealed, so I picked a guy by the milk and drew.. *timebomb*
^lol had to. But really..you think training more will help? Any tips? I keep drawing like that and I just can't seem to get it right..and the gun is at an angle too, which I thought would make it easier to grasp the handle..
Ruthless4christ
New member
concealed
concealed, I i don't need anybody attacking me knowing I am ready for them. better they think i am an unsuspecting victim...and then get surprised.
concealed, I i don't need anybody attacking me knowing I am ready for them. better they think i am an unsuspecting victim...and then get surprised.Silentarmy
New member
Shadowbob and Blues bear...
My comment on Cowboy rigs VS concealed was antagonistic for a purpose. In part to illustrate that Open Carry is socially unacceptable and we no longer live in the wild west! In some instances, I also carry with only a cover garment and this is why I Boast to prove a point. There is in most cases little difference in open VS concealed carry in draw time. As All of you will have noticed and I will get few arguments here, The biggest difference is the Juvenile attitude often present with the cowboy carriers. Excuse me if I am mistaken as this attitude may just come from being, Well... a Juvenile.
MYXD... on the range challenge, Game on! I don't get to the Denver area much but should I anytime soon I will keep an eye out for " The Kid" You should be easy to spot doing burnouts in your new truck and strutting around with the Big Iron on your hip. I suggest however that you put a few thousand more rounds through that .40 as I feel my extra 15 yrs of Maturity and actual LE and Military experience gives me an unfair advantage. Your OP has been educational (as difficult as you find it to swallow) and your questions answered. I suggest some force on force training in weapon retention as an attitude such as yours will almost certainly earn you a good pistol whipping before that lightning draw and dead eye can do you any good. There are a fair amount of Boogey men in the Denver area!
My comment on Cowboy rigs VS concealed was antagonistic for a purpose. In part to illustrate that Open Carry is socially unacceptable and we no longer live in the wild west! In some instances, I also carry with only a cover garment and this is why I Boast to prove a point. There is in most cases little difference in open VS concealed carry in draw time. As All of you will have noticed and I will get few arguments here, The biggest difference is the Juvenile attitude often present with the cowboy carriers. Excuse me if I am mistaken as this attitude may just come from being, Well... a Juvenile.
MYXD... on the range challenge, Game on! I don't get to the Denver area much but should I anytime soon I will keep an eye out for " The Kid" You should be easy to spot doing burnouts in your new truck and strutting around with the Big Iron on your hip. I suggest however that you put a few thousand more rounds through that .40 as I feel my extra 15 yrs of Maturity and actual LE and Military experience gives me an unfair advantage. Your OP has been educational (as difficult as you find it to swallow) and your questions answered. I suggest some force on force training in weapon retention as an attitude such as yours will almost certainly earn you a good pistol whipping before that lightning draw and dead eye can do you any good. There are a fair amount of Boogey men in the Denver area!
I've never tried carrying without a holster. Honestly, I don't see the point.
One of my biggest concerns is making sure my gun cannot fire accidentally, and it cannot fall free. This means I insist on using a quality holster that covers the trigger, and has some type of restraint. My favorite is a thumb strap, but a good molded holster works well, also.
XD, as a general rule, mexican carry, especially small of back mexican carry will never be as fast as drawing from a good holster. And since there is practically zero retention the gun will never be in exactly the same position.
Even ghetto is just as bad but at least that way the gun won't completely slip down into your personal gun free zone.
Do yourself and everyon else a favor and get a holster.
Even ghetto is just as bad but at least that way the gun won't completely slip down into your personal gun free zone.
Do yourself and everyon else a favor and get a holster.