Open Carry culture

Ah, what Aguila is referring to is called "brandishing" in some states. AZ made it legal for self defense purposes under the statute of "defensive display" a few years ago.
 
I suspect what you are thinking of is a case somewhere, some time in which someone pulled back their cover garment in order to display a sidearm in a threatening manner. I would agree that's illegal (unless done in response to an assault or threatened assault), but I find it difficult to believe that in Washington if the day turns warm I'm supposed to make like Superman and find a telephone booth before I'm allowed to remove my jacket because I'm getting hot.
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Like I said, that is my understanding of the law, and it does make a lot of sense from a legal point of view: It is difficult to legally distinguish between taking off your coat to illegally display your weapon in a threatening manner, and taking off your coat to begin legal open carry. Therefore, if the transition is made in private it avoids those distinctions.

That is the understanding that myself, and many other people I know, have regarding Washington law. It makes complete sense why the law would be written that way. But like I said, I may be wrong.
 
Theohazard said:
That is the understanding that myself, and many other people I know, have regarding Washington law. It makes complete sense why the law would be written that way. But like I said, I may be wrong.
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I don't agree that it makes sense, but since you maintain that the law is written that way, please provide a link to the actual law so we can all see what it really says.
 
Like I said already, I'm going to email the local expert on my state's concealed carry laws on Monday. I'll let you know what I find out.

Though I don't quite understand how such a law wouldn't make sense. It seems like it would be very difficult to legally distinguish between taking off your coat for the purpose of illegally threatening another person, and legally doing so for the purpose of switching to open carry.

The kind of law I'm referring to would greatly simplify that distinction.
 
While there would certainly be some grey areas, a pretty broad line is obvious...Is the person in question engaged in any manner with another person? In other words, was the person just walking down the street and removed their coat or similar circumstances, or were they actively engaged with another person. If they are engaged with another person are there any indicators of hostility? Would be kinda hard to argue, that the persons intent was to threaten, if they were not in a disagreement or conflict of some sort with another person.

Since you do not seem to want to produce the law...

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
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Source

Merely uncovering a firearm with no other indicators of hostility, conflict, or impending violence, it would be awful hard to prove intent to intimidate. As the uncovered firearm in itself is a legal activity, it would be difficult to say that a person engaging in a perfectly legal activity warrants alarm. It may cause alarm, but proving that alarm was warranted is another matter.
 
Since you do not seem to want to produce the law...
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I'd rather ask someone who knows the laws inside and out than spend a lot of time searching for something online, especially if I'm wrong and such a law doesn't exist; I did a quick search and didn't find anything regarding transitioning from concealed to open carry while in public. It can take a lot of time searching for something if it isn't there.

I'm not sure why I'm getting so much flak for this; I've stated many times that I may be wrong and that this was merely my understanding of the law.

I've only lived in Washington state for a year now. One thing I've gathered so far is that in many places (mostly on the western side of the state) the public and the police are often not very receptive to open carry of any kind, despite it being legal. My boss has a close friend who recently witnessed a local SWAT team take down a man in a supermarket who accidentally exposed his handgun while shopping. I have friends who open carry in the Seattle area who are stopped constantly by police.

Maybe my understanding of the law is merely an anecdotal advisement on what will often get you harassed by local law enforcement, and not what the actual law is.
 
The reason for the "flak", as you would put it, is your statement is akin to, "based on my understanding of aliens, which may not even exist, they like sandwiches". In other words, how do you proclaim to understand something you're not even sure exists?

Asking for some sort of basis for your statement is hardly "flak".
 
Fair enough. Though in this case my statement is "based on my understanding of the law as it has been conveyed to me by people who seemed to be more knowledgeable on the subject than I". And also in this case I've acknowledged many times that those people, and I, may be wrong.

And keep in mind that while there might not be a specific law on transitioning from concealed to open carry in public, specific court rulings regarding the subject might have established precedents on the issue. That is why I'd rather consult an expert than search through pages of case reference.
 
tomrkba said:
Citation?

VCDL carries at the capitol building all the time for the apparently rare occasion that people engage in several rights simultaneously. They know we're carrying and they understand that our intent is to not do them harm. They understand our political point and we're reminding them that we are not paychecks to be taxed and used at their leisure.
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I said its my belief. I have yet to see anything positive come from the OC movement, yet I cited one example where a right exercised was a right lost. From a public point of view, you aren't going to sway pro-gunners or anti-gunners one way or another. It's the people in the middle. Civil OC rallies like what you mention? Yeah that might have an impact. Someone videotaping their OC walk because you want to get a cop on camera violating your 2nd Amendment rights (which gets mentioned every time they open their mouth)? Probably not going to help.

Like I said, I'm pro-OC. The few times I do it, it makes me smile when I see a sheeple stare at my gun. I'd love to know what's going through their head. I just think its something that you need to be smart about. I have the right to say what I want, but I'll go to jail if I yell "Fire!" or "Bomb!" in a crowded place. I'm not saying that this is the same as OC, but even our supposed uninfringable rights have limits. Be careful, and be mindful of the political climate. That's what the OCers in California didn't do...and the had rights taken away even further.
 
Az. was an OC only state since statehood until a few years ago. Then came either or after permits were available. Now we can carry either way without a permit.

I have a permit & carry both ways. I have never had a bad experience while OCing. I can assure you that I can get my arm in action much quicker when OCing!
 
Under OC rules here I can carry a shotgun, rifle or hand gun in my hands. Brandishing would be pointing, vocally threating, intimidation or unholstering a gun without an immediate threat. as for CC to OC I do it a half dozen times a day. In the truck = CC get out of the truck = OC

One night Mrs. Longun was driving us back north and made a wrong turn. When she woke me we were in a rather bad neighborhood and its 2:30 am. We travel maybe ten blocks and it is just getting worse. I see a party store open a head. In front of this store there is between 15 & 20 men standing around and at least half have a bottle in hand. As I get out of the car I tell her to remember the name of the store and if things go bad to keep moving roll every stop light until she finds a cop. I grab my 1911 off the seat walk behind the car and head for the store as I start getting close I can see the man inside is behind bullet proof glass and by the fractures it had been tested. I am now about 20’ from the men 30’ from the glass. Looking back it was like Moses parting the seas. I was given a very wide berth on both sides. I have now reached the glass the man inside shakes his head and tells me you are one crazy a## white boy. I know its going to be ok at that point if the clerk thought I was nuts good chance the others did to. So I slip a twenty half way under the glass and say I need directions to I75 fifteen min. later back on the highway.

As for tactical advantage a 1911 in hand is worth two under a shirt.

Longun
 
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Koda94 said:
How ironic, while traveling thru Newberg Oregon yesterday I stopped for gas. A truck pulled up for gas and the passenger that got out to buy a snack in the store was OCing.... my observations, nobody cared or noticed. Based on his demeanor, not only was there nothing to worry about but he seemed very friendly (Newberg is a small town IMO).

Admittingly, Im not up to speed on OC laws in Oregon because I never considered it in any city limit. But I suspect that with a CHL its legal.... (pretty much would end the printing debate) and could be convienient at times....
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The skinny in OR is that the State is an OC state, but city law may be more restrictive. In Portland and many other cities (and now, all of Multnomah Co),, open carry of a loaded firearm is allowed if you have an Oregon CHL-- as you seem to have suspected.

Because I OC at work (LGS), I sometimes OC during stops on the way home during the warm season. My preference is CC. I haven't had any bad experiences OCing.

My most notable OC experience was at a gas station. I went inside to get a Cherry Pepsi, and a female customer asked if my gun was real. I said, "No. I'm an actor. I'm an extra in an FBI office scene." She heard "no" and "extra" and decided I was about as interesting as Corn Flakes.
 
Thank you, sigcurious, for producing the law. It seems pretty clear to me, and I'd say your explanation is spot on. Absent an intent to be threatening, exposing your firearm does not appear to be unlawful.
 
Although im very pro OC and CC, even if they were legal where I live (Hollywood), there are too many hipsters that would make a big fuss about me walking around OC'ing.
People at coffee shops would probably get upset and leave wherever I rolled in.
Too much attention.
CC would be preferable. If it were legal I might.

We actually had some guy pull out a gun and open fire just a few miles from where I live late last year, outside a McDonald's off Sunset blvd. He was shooting at traffic. An off duty police officer who was packing (concealed) put the guy down only after he got a few shots off. No one was hurt. A complete hero in my book. But you can bet that story didn't make it into the news too much.. Which is a shame.

Anyways, pro OC and pro CC (as long as the person is properly educated and has a permit). Just like I wouldn't to drive on the same streets with people who never learned to drive and don't have a license.
 
I used to open carry in Eastern Oregon and Idaho before i was eligible for my CHL. but i didnt do it alot. over in idaho i would get alot flak in wal-mart so i just stopped altogether. i dont really like explaining to people if "i had a license" or if i thought i was Rambo. it just gets annoying so i waited till i was 21 and got the permit, now its concealed for me all the time. unless im hunting or out in the bush of course.

Koda your probably close to Portland right? my brother lives in Gresham and he heard on the news where a guy got arrested in Portland for OC(even though he had a CC permit) they charged him with disturbing the peace and one other thing i dont remember. not sure if he was causing a muck or the PPD overreacted.

either way OC in Portland area = Bad juju for youyou
 
Aguila Blanca and sigcurious:

OK, so I found out more about transitioning from concealed to open carry in Washington. I was wrong about the law as I initially stated it; the law simply is as stated above.

The law quoted by sigcurious is the WA statute that limits open carry (RCW 9.41.270). Arrests and subsequent court rulings have both clarified and obfuscated the issue. As a result, many experts recommend keeping the weapon completely concealed when CCing and also exercising a large amount of discretion when OCing. In the words of one local expert:
In an urban setting, you could be cited under RCW 9.41.270, depending on your behavior; that is, if your behavior "warrants alarm". Enforcement of the law is weighted toward a subjective judgement on the part of the observer, whether a private citizen or police officer, and NOT in the intent or action of the armed citizen.
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When I was advised about transitioning from concealed to open carry, the advice was based on avoiding undue attention and possible arrest, and not based on a specific prohibition in the law.
 
Mausermolt said:
either way OC in Portland area = Bad juju for youyou
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I lived in SE for a while... trust me I know. The self righteous there can be brutal, if you show up with a gun they will protest you out, if you show up naked (not kidding here) they will praise you and protest any police that showed up to question you. I don't know about the guy OCing you mentioned, but recently in protest to some of the gun control legislation some guys walked around with their AR15's in protest or not they were allowed to carry on despite schools in lockdown and 911 flooded with calls. (news reported they had CHL's)

So far, everything I read says its legal with a CHL with a possible huge grey area regarding OCing on the Portland Streetcar and some very confusing place called an "Illegal Firearm Use Hotspot"...
Streetcar source: 14A.110.280 Weapons
Hotspot source: 14A.90.010(b)

regardless, I have no plans on OCing in Suburbia or downtown. It's obviously more acceptable in rural areas and what is good to learn from this thread though especially in those places its not a big deal, as well as learn one can transition to OC without ramifications.... or not worry about switching to a lighter shirt in hotter weather.

Now what would be interesting to read is those that OC in downtown and the reactions etc.
 
The lower the profile I can maintain, the happier I am. OC is legal in Kentucky without a license (I don't like the term "permit", it sounds servile), and we are a shall-issue state. I live in a metro area of a million people. I could legally carry openly. I could also go out in public dressed as a two-toed sloth. Either would attract attention I don't want. I'll carry concealed in the city.

Unfortunately, many of the people I see practicing OC are Wally World commandos: full camo, large handguns in holsters with little if any retention capability, lots of swagger and loud talk. Their attitude seems to be, "I do this because I can, and if you don't like it, what are you going to do about it?" These people are not helping our cause.

Carry openly if you wish, and if you aren't doing it to parade your machismo. This crippled-up old man will stay unobtrusive and hope not to have to use his gun.
 
shoulda, I understand - in the small town in which I work is one ragged individual, always wears torn cargo shorts, dirty t-shirt, carries a Glock 17 in a Safariland retention holster OC, on a belt so thin and frayed it might as well be a spaghetti noodle. I tried to mention High Noon Holsters as a good source of concealed carry leather as well as good gun belts, and he cut me off with "I don't conceal, ever." Not a great ambassador for rights, though he HAS ever right to do exactly that. It IS a retention rig, but it can be defeated by just breaking that noodle it's mounted on.
Jeremiah, we got CCW in 1994 in AZ, Constitutional Carry in 2010. Long road, but we made it, and so can other states.
 
I'm not an extroverted person. If you can see my house without an invite you're trespassing. I OC around the farm, in the woods, and when I'm out and about on my horse. But in town and in "public" I keep it under wraps, 'specialy when on the horse - that draws enough attention as it is.

Don't need the extra attention, or to be the first one taken out if there's trouble.
 
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