One ragged hole - less than $5K?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brian... You're a recreational or competitive civilian shooter and God bless you for that. You're probably a much better shot than I. I'm sure you have perfectly acceptable results with a much less expensive rig. As do most others. I was simply justifying the cost of a good Tactical Rig.

Of course your scope adjusts and returns just fine and dandy. If they didn't adjust they would be useless. Inexpensive scopes just don't adjust consistently. I'm talking about using, say, a Mildot reticle to range a target, adjusting your scope using only whatever MOA clicks it employs, taking one shot and having it be on target. Then using the same number of clicks to return your scope to its original zero and having it still be on-target at the original range it was zero'd at. Most inexpensive scopes are not precise enough to do that accurately. If you have a physical "Stop" at the original range it will come back fine... Maybe. But if you don't, it won't. a Sniper has to KNOW his equipment will function precisely and consistently EVERY TIME.
Even though Snipers try as hard as they can to not mis-treat their equipment, sometimes circumstances don't allow for that. It's those times that the equipment needs to be as rock-solid as possible along with being precision. There's just a price tag that comes with that kind of assurance.

No disrespect to the vast majority of shooters. I know a lot of you can shoot "Bug-holes" at 300yds. "all day long" with your $500 Savage and $250 scope...(sarcasm). Just passing along what I know... From experience.
 
You're also passing along assumptions that no one ever claimed and requirements not included in the OP, and I don't say that with sarcasm.

The OP wants 1/4-3/8 groups at 100 yards and says it can be done for $5,000.

No snipers. No dragging equipment through rocks.

$500 Savages and $250 scopes are used as an example of how little can do how much, not the end all be all of rifles. It's funny, it's not "experience" unless it's what "you've" done. No matter that thousands of us rednecks have killed millions of prairie dogs and woodchucks, consistently, at hundreds of yards with rigs that cost less than a car, year after year, for decades.

We don't compete, don't name things "tactical" and we don't shoot 30 rounds to call it a group, so we don't count.

I don't shoot bug-hole groups all day long at 300 yards. I do shoot groups around an inch at 300 yards though. Pretty darn regularly, with my $450 Ruger and $250 Mueller scope. That same gun shoots 1/2" or less at 100, all the time, pretty much every time, unless I screw it up.

Now, there's no doubt that each smaller increment costs more money. No doubt at all. The question is, since I know that all kinds of factory rifles, that cost anything from $450-$800 and topped with optics from $250-$500, can RELIABLY shoot around a 1/2", quite easily...

What does that extra 1/8-1/4" cost?

$4,000 for another 1/8"? Really?

Ya'll can argue yourselves to death from here on... I've said my piece, I've seen it with my own eyes from my own gun, and there's nothing special about the gun and most CERTAINLY not my shooting. You spend your money, I'll spend mine.
 
Well... Let me clarify something first and foremost. I DO NOT own a $5000.00 rifle rig of any kind. Tactical or otherwise. My most expensive Rig cost me $1700.00 and is a "used" former Police Department Sniper rifle. It's a Remington receiver with Shilen Barrel and Trigger, Sako-style extractor and Chet Brown Stock... Topped with a Leupold 10x scope. I was simply justifying the $5000.00 price tag on some of the very accurate rifle/scope combinations and explaining why they cost that much.

No need to get all uppity about it. No offense but you don't know me... Who or What I've hunted, where I've hunted... what firearms I've owned, shot, tested, broke, fixed. Just like you, I know what I can do and what I have done... and, for that matter, how "Redneck" I am. I've bought, sold, traded and shot too many firearms to count for the last 40 years.

I really don't know why I waste my time on forums...
 
OK, I have my answer I think :D Thanks to everyone...in related news looks like there is hope for my handloads and my Vanguard after all (with a little luck).

Brian, please close this one down. Looks like it is headed south :rolleyes:

-cls
 
Well, here we go, (some of us sideways),,, let's just say that the OP's original question = yes.
I traded a stuffed bobcat for a Savage 110, .270 win,(350.00)+ scope,(189.00) rings and bases,(50.00). So for under $600.00, and some lengthy handload testing sessions, I got this rifle to shoot under a 1/4 inch.

Now I would sell that sucker for half that $5000.00 if anybodies interested.?!;)
 
Rifle

Some time ago I purchased the Thompson Center cheap model bolt action rifle. I believe it's the "Venture" model in .270 caliber. It is the most accurate rifle I've owned and I've owned a lot. Any 130 grain ammo from Walmart will shoot significantly less than 1" from a Lead Sled. Also the groups do not wander or increase as the barrel heats up. I've had rifles that cost $3k ++ and were custom that would not shoot with this el cheapo TC. Perhaps I got an exceptional one as even the trigger is incredibly good.
 
I'm calling horse pucky on the need for $5K or so to get an accurate rifle.

Taking the shooter out of the equation (which you can do by locking the rifle into a vice) you can do it for a heck of a lot less then 5K.

Read the "Secrets of the Huston Warehouse"

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

Then study Dr. F. Mann (inventor of the Mann Accuracy Device used by the army and military ammo contractors to test ammo) and his work on the subject. "The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target". Dr Mann spent his life trying to get bullets to go into the same hole.

The two mention works were written nearly a centry apart but pretty much say the same thing.

"The ARC" or The two most critical aspect of accuracy is case prep and perfectly seating the bullet in the case so it enters the barrel straight.

That doesn't take a $5000 + rifle. Sure a rifle has to be put together right but that doesn't take a lot of money, just a bit of time and attention to details.

Here's an ideal to prove my point. I mentioned the Mann Accuracy Device. They are extremely accurate. Wont find many more accurate. You can buy them from the CMP for $500 bucks in 308, using a Model 1903a3 action. Don't spend any more money on the device. Build a vice to hold the device, load up some 135 gn SMKs and 3031 powder and you'll get groups better then just about any $5000 rifle on the market.

The trick is loading the ammo, case prep and a good competition seating die.

Here is a picture of my Mann device, a 5.56 verson on a Remington action.

1%20_2_.jpg


The 5.56 version doesn't have a stock of any kind. But I could by any cheap stock, glass the crap out of it and with no modification to the device I can have a dern accurate rifle. The army used 52 gn SMKs with 25 grns of 3031 in remington cases getting about .19 inch groups as a test round for the device.

The 308 version from the CMP had a modified (cut up)1903 stock.

Check out the bottom of the page of this link for the CMP Mann Devices.

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/miscellaneous.htm

DO NOT get hung up on the ideal that you need big bucks to have an accurate rifle. One of the most accurate rifles I have is my wife's 243 I built on a Model 70 action. I did the work, and excluding glass, I have less then $225 in the rifle.

The 243 is one weird cartridge, it will shoot in just about any rifle you fire it in. Hard to screw it up, problem is it eats up barrels, Hunters wont notice, but target shooters will, what with practice and competitions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top