One ragged hole - less than $5K?

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I think a lot of people are missing the point. It's not $5000 for just rifle and scope. It's $5000 for everything you need to shoot a 1-hole group at 100yds. Depending what caliber you are using, you need quite a bit better than .5" at 100 to get to one-hole. That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve. The OP mentioned the setup has to do this routinely. To me that means 90% of the time or better. My ~MOA sporter .243 has shot a .4 group once or twice but it's definitely not a .4 MOA rifle.


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I think a lot of people are missing the point. It's not $5000 for just rifle and scope. It's $5000 for everything you need to shoot a 1-hole group at 100yds. Depending what caliber you are using, you need quite a bit better than .5" at 100 to get to one-hole. That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve. The OP mentioned the setup has to do this routinely. To me that means 90% of the time or better. My ~MOA sporter .243 has shot a .4 group once or twice but it's definitely not a .4 MOA rifle.
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If your rifle does it once, then it is more than capable of doing it over and over provided the loads are the same. I'd be more inclined to say that the rifle is a .400 MOA rifle but you aren't a .400 MOA shooter. Fact is, most of the rifles anyone here is talking about are capable of greater accuracy and repeatability than the shooters stroking the triggers. Heck I know just about every rifle I have can shoot better than I make it. I know when I'm on or off by my first couple of groups.

However, I get what you are saying. The fact is sub .5" MOA is pretty tight at 100 yards, a one ragged hole on a consistant basis might cost you 5K or more. And by one ragged hole I assume that you would mean 5 shots in a hole less than 1.25-1.5X the diameter of the first shot. Would a person have to be shooting this gun with the 20lb barrel, 1 oz trigger and mechanical stability vice be able to use it for any other practical purpose.
 
Saltydog235 said:
If your rifle does it once, then it is more than capable of doing it over and over provided the loads are the same. I'd be more inclined to say that the rifle is a .400 MOA rifle but you aren't a .400 MOA shooter. Fact is, most of the rifles anyone here is talking about are capable of greater accuracy and repeatability than the shooters stroking the triggers. Heck I know just about every rifle I have can shoot better than I make it.
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That would make sense if I had only shot this one rifle and not proved my abilities with better, more accurate guns. If you took Tubbs and gave him my .243 with it's theoretical most accurate loads, gave me my buddies Cooper in .204 Ruger with his pet loads and had us both shoot from sandbags at 100 yards, I am pretty confident that I could shoot a tighter group. I have shot a ragged hole with his gun many times. The groups from my gun are for the most part twice or more times as large as the ones I shoot with his gun.

Money can buy accuracy. Even a green horn with basic shooting instincts can make a tiny group with a little instruction if we're talking about a bench-rested rifle with proven accuracy.

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This is from a home-built AR in 6.8SPC, total build cost under $1000. I was zeroing the scope for deer season last year. 100yrds, no wind, overcast day, 80F.

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This was a different 6.8 AR, build cost around $1100. Using iron sights, getting them adjusted, calm day, 100yrds, 90F. Two 3 shot strings.

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I agree with Salty... nobody is a .25 MOA shooter anyway and just because your gun has shot .25moa before does not mean it is a .25moa gun. You can build a .25 moa@100yds rifle on a budget, but not for $1000 including an optic.You would also need to reload.
 
Nobody is a 1/4 MOA shooter? Really?

Reloading costs are virtually irrelevant. Many of us do it already and even if you don't you can buy everything you need for $300 or so. If you already reload, a new set of dies might be $35.
 
Just saying, ive never seen a rifle repeat .25moa group after group without reloads. Also, I have on occasion put .5moa groups on targets out to 1000 but I would never consider myself a .5moa shooter, let alone a .25moa shooter. Too many variables.
 
So many factors in shooting those kinds of groups on a consistant basis, that mainly will come down to the shooter. Most rifles (Savage and Remington come to mind) are much more accurate than the shooter. Triggers,ammo,type of rest, scope etc are all factors. Most of the time, if I shoot minute of Deer, it is good enough for me.
 
So long as a portion (most) of that pile of money is for ammo and range fees, yeah, tight groups are likely...

TCB
 
Well, well, well...I never imagined such a spirited discussion would arise from my OP. Seems like the consensus is "Yes, it can be done, and for a lot less than $5K". However, I'd like to point out three things.

First, yes, the money is supposed to get you from a position of owning no rifle, no rest, and no reloading setup, all the way to shooting those itty-bitty groups. Although presumably you know how to shoot already and have at least an inkling of how to handload.

Second, a whole lot of you are chiming in with your half-inch groups and whatnot, but please remember that I asked about 1/4 to 3/8 inch groups at 100 yards, not 1/2 inch. And as FiveInADime stated, "That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve.".

Third, and most important, if you luck up and get a sweet shooter at the gun show for $100 then you must recognize that luck is the most important part of that acquisition. Same as if you luck up and get a current off-the shelf entry-level factory rifle (Remington 700 ADL, Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic, etc.) that's a one-holer. This can't happen all that often IMHO, else why would some manufacturers offer a "One MOA" guarantee? I think if you want to ensure you get a one-holer, you're gonna have to pay quite a few dollars for it. Stated another way, your run-of-the-mill $500 rifle may be a one-holer, but a custom $3000 job stands a lot better chance at it. Stated yet another way, the spirit of the OP was "Less than $5K and maybe a little luck", not "$1K and a whole lot of luck".

Brian Pfleuger, your post on how to take a factory Savage and make it a tack driver was very informative, thank you.

Thanks to all of you for your posts so far.

-cls
 
frumious said:
First, yes, the money is supposed to get you from a position of owning no rifle, no rest, and no reloading setup, all the way to shooting those itty-bitty groups. Although presumably you know how to shoot already and have at least an inkling of how to handload.

Second, a whole lot of you are chiming in with your half-inch groups and whatnot, but please remember that I asked about 1/4 to 3/8 inch groups at 100 yards, not 1/2 inch. And as FiveInADime stated, "That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve.".
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Well, that changes things... by about 1/8th of an inch.:D;)

There's not much to argue, really. 3/8th inch groups are not THAT tiny and $5,000 is a BOAT LOAD of cash to spend on a rifle, even including equipment.

Could you spend 5 Gs? Yeah, you sure could.

What are you getting for the difference between "needs" for 3/8s and the $5Gs? You're getting cosmetics, and a few luxuries.

The necessary parts just don't cost THAT much money.

You COULD buy a $2,000 Nightforce, but a $450 Sightron will certainly do the job.

Yeah, you could have the whole gun custom made by a world renowned gunsmith, but you don't NEED to for 3/8th groups. You CAN do it yourself.

The stuff just doesn't cost that much money.

Look, you can buy VERY high-end BR actions from Barnard, Borden or Farley for like $1,100. Barrels from Lilja are maybe $450 if you try hard, plus maybe $250 for chambering. That's only $2,000 and you're 80% done. All you need is a stock, optics and reloading equipment. Even a $1,200 scope, $700 stock and $600 worth of other gear only gets you to about $4,500 and that's going ultra-high end on EVERYTHING.

You could buy the scope, stock and all your reloading equipment for $1,200 TOTAL. That puts you at under $3,300, finished product, and that's still REALLY high-end stuff.

I really think that $5,000 is unrealistically HIGH, not low.
 
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No matter how much money you spend on equipment,if you aren't worth a damn at shooting,your targets will show the truth.
Even if you are a damn good shooter,shooting one hole 1/8"-3/8" groups everytime you go shooting would be awfully hard to do or believe unless your shooting a 30lb benchrest gun.

Somedays,everything is just right,and you can shoot like You and the Gun are one.But most of the time,your in the real world,and you just shoot decent groups.
Most rifles made today will shoot MOA or better,most shooters don't!
 
I contend that even 3/8" isn't quite what I imagine as a "One-Hole" group. If I had the skill and the rifle to shoot 0.375" with regularity I would be thrilled. What I envision as a one-hole group would be .25" or better. Yes, that 1/8" is a big difference.


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frumious,
I get the impression that you're 1/4 and 3/8ths criteria might be different in you're perception than in mine.

If you're talking about 1/4 (0.250) to 3/8 (0.375) inch group averages or medians, you are right it isn't easy to do but I provided an example of two rifles that did just that with two of their favorite ammos.

However, since you didn't state average or median group size, so I presumed you mean a lot of the time but not always which is how I interpret the phrase often stated on this forum - "one hole groups all day long". People who don't measure everything tend to dismiss the groups that aren't the best groups as "shooter error".

To shoot an average of .266 and .276 with its favorite loads, both of which are under 3/8ths (0.375) by a good bit, my CZ 223 that I mentioned in post #19 above had to shoot about half of those groups under your magic 1/4 inch lower bound. The CZs best groups in those averages included groups at 0.147, 0.162, 0.182, 0.201, 0.205, 0.210, 0.227 inches all of which are well under your 1/4 inch criteria.

The performance is under 0.375 with both of its favorite loads so the CZ meets your 3/8ths upper bound for average and is slightly higher than your 1/4 inch criteria.
My Remington 700 had two favorite ammo averages just under or at .375.
Both rifles were under $1,200 including the scopes.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I would suggest you be more explicit about your criteria. A 1/4 inch or 3/8th median group criteria would include groups that were larger than the criteria about 1/2 the time. That is the way averages and medians work.
 
ive never seen a rifle repeat .25moa group after group without reloads
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You need to get out more than. A 6mmbr will do it all day long with Lapua ammo. Also Brian Litz sells some extremely accurate ammo.

To the OP, there are very few custom built rifles over $5k, with glass and everything to go with it, yes but not just the rifle.
 
I'm not a Benchrest shooter so I can't speak intelligently about those rifles. I'm a Tactical Longrange shooter and in a past life did it for a living. In my world it was about first shot accuracy, precision, repeatability and ruggedness. To have all of these you simply have to buy an expensive setup... Period. Sure, most decent rifles nowadays are capable of great groups and many shooters use those rifles to their potential. But take that inexpensive setup and drag it around in the rocks, drop it, generally just beat it up and expect it to keep absolute zero first time, every time. No "foulers", no warm up. Cold-bore, first shot bullseye... Not likely.
Oh, and try this with your $250 scope. Zero it at 100yds., using whatever means you like find a target at an unknown distance, figure out the distance, adjust your scope using your 1/4 minute, or 1/8 minute or whatever "clicks" to be zero'd at that distance, and take one shot and have it be within 1moa of the bullseye (which isn't really asking much because at 1000yds you'd miss a human). Now spin it quickly back to your 100yd. zero and make a 100yd. one-shot bullseye.

There's a reason for Premier, S&B, US Optics etc., scopes being $2000+. There's a reason an Accuracy International AIAW is $4000+.

...FWIW
 
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oneshot onekill said:
I'm not a Benchrest shooter so I can't speak intelligently about those rifles. I'm a Tactical Longrange shooter and in a past life did it for a living. In my world it was about first shot accuracy, precision, repeatability and ruggedness. To have all of these you simply have to buy an expensive setup... Period. Sure, most decent rifles nowadays are capable of great groups and many shooters use those rifles to their potential. But take that inexpensive setup and drag it around in the rocks, drop it, generally just beat it up and expect it to keep absolute zero first time, every time. No "foulers", no warm up. Cold-bore, first shot bullseye... Not likely.
Oh, and try this with your $250 scope. Zero it at 100yds., using whatever means you like find a target at an unknown distance, figure out the distance, adjust your scope using your 1/4 minute, or 1/8 minute or whatever "clicks" to be zero'd at that distance, and take one shot and have be within 1moa of the bullseye (which isn't really asking much because at 1000yds you'd miss a human). Now spin it quickly back to your 100yd. zero and make a 100yd. one-shot bullseye.

There's a reason for Premier, S&B, US Optics etc., scopes being $2000+. There's a reason an Accuracy International AIAW is $4000+.

...FWIW
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Uh?? 10" from bull would be a hit on me, Lol.

Precision duty rifles are obviously a different story than hunting and bencher rifles but i'm sure there are plenty of rugged accurate rifles at the range and in the hunting fields.

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Well, I've got no plans to drag my rifle through rocks or generally beat it up and in 30+ years of owning guns, I haven't dropped one yet.

Oh, and my $240 scope adjusts and returns just fine and dandy, thank you.

None of which, mind you, really has anything to do with the OP.

It's pretty obvious that an excellent rifle with high-end equipment top to bottom can be had for far less than $5,000.
 
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