One ragged hole - less than $5K?

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frumious

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All,

I was talking with a co-worker today about the pursuit of the one-hole group. I made the statement that regularly shooting a one-hole group is easy, that in fact all it takes to do so is money. Let me clarify.

It is my belief that for "reasonable" rifle chamberings, putting together a rifle and rest setup that often puts 5 shots into about 1/4 inch or maybe 3/8 inch at 100 yards on a more-or-less calm day can be done for less than $5,000. I'm not saying $5,000 is chump change, 'cause it ain't (at least to me). I'm just saying that if you have that kind of money to invest in a rifle, scope, rest, and a decent handloading setup, itty-bitty groups can be yours pretty easily.

"Reasonable" chamberings include things like .308, .223, .30-06, .22-250, .270, etc. Chamberings for which high-quality bullets are available. There are many, many more than the five chamberings I have listed, of course.

"Rifle" means something the average non-shooter would look at and say "Yup, that's a rifle." Maybe even "Yup, that's a fancy rifle." I am not talking about open/unlimited benchrest class return-to-battery setups.

"More-or-less calm" means no wind or at most 5-10 mph wind - even full-value, gusty wind.

I made this claim because at the rifle range I go to I see guys all the time with these custom bolt guns (usually in .308) shooting itty-bitty groups. One guy had his gun strapped (forearm and buttstock) into a nice one-piece sled-type rest and was basically aiming with knobs on the rest and otherwise not touching the rifle except to pull the trigger. His 100-yard groups at starting loads were better than any group I have ever shot, period the end. And that day was what I would call windy...15-20mph gusty wind. He was shooting without flags.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Was I just running my mouth or do you think there is some truth to my $5,000 claim?

-cls
 
I think you may be pushing the envelope, but there are several uber competitors who can probably tell you what the top shots consistently do at 100+ yards.
 
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There are a lot of production rifles that guarantee 1MOA out of the box. I bet with a good quality rifle, a little work in the action and bedding, with good glass you could easily achieve that goal for less than $5k.
 
you could easily achieve that goal for less than $5k.
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:eek: I don't know what I did wrong, but I did that for around $700 with a used Rem 700 VLS .243 Win. and a $190 Mueller scope. A lot of production rifles will do that- very often the secret is reloading and somewhere between a little and a lot of range testing.
 
Chuck Hawks reported that in their tests they achieved a .41" 100yd group with a Savage Model 12 F-T/R using factory loaded hunting ammo. Not quite 3/8 but not bad for an $1100 rifle and hunting ammo. I've been eying them for a couple of years but there aren't any ranges near me with kind of distances to make it $1100 worth of interesting.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_M12-Fclass.htm
 
$5000?!

Good Lord!

My $450 Ruger M77 MkII chambered in 204, with a $79 Jard trigger, topped with a $240 Mueller Eradicator and loaded with carefully crafted handloads shoots in under 1/2" at 100 consistently. I've posted a few groups here.

If you can't do it for WAY less than HALF of $5,000, somebody needs to drop some money on shooting lessons, not better firearms.

If I used Tiger Woods clubs, I'd still SUCK at golf, know what I mean?
 
if I had a shooting vice I would probably be able to do shots touching groups with a lot of my rifles. my springfield 1903 is easily sub MOA with good ammo, I can shoot MOA groups from it with ammo made in WWII as long as I do my part.

1. it does not have an oversized bolt knob. it does not have a freefloated, glass bedded sporter stock with built in adjustable cheek pads and butt pad.

2. it does not have a scope that costs more than my first car.

3. the only ammo it has ever seen has been intended for front line combat, not target matches, heck, it has never even been in the same room as match grade ammo.

4. the closest thing to a benchrest it has ever seen was probably some kid stacking rubble up in france to give himself a stable shooting platform.

I have under $1000 into it and I have no doubts that on a calm day I could put 5 shots touching if someone gave me a benchrest and matchgrade ammo.

EDIT: I think brian pfleuger hit the nail on the head. you can give me tiger woods clubs and I'd still suck at golf. you can give a knuckle dragger that flinches everytime his 223 goes off a 2000 colt with 1000 dollars worth of mods and a 2000 dollar scope and guess what....he's still going to flinch.
 
Frumious, it doesn't matter if it's current dollar rate or not. Great deals can be found in the used rifle market- maybe not every day on every corner shop- but they can be found. Your figure of 5K is way out there. If your'e in a position to drop that much on a setup- power to you, but understand all those dollars don't mean much to those who can make do with a total investment of less than 1K.
 
You can do this for considerably less than 5g's.

My wife bought me for a Cooper MDL 22 Montana Varminter,6.5/284, 26",1/8', before I relocated to the MS coast. I had to assemble everything from scratch. No components available at all here.

I loaded 40 rounds, Lapua brass, Sierra 142gr Matchkings, and three load combinations. I struggled greatly and was still able to get two groups under.3", and know I can do much better when I get this thing figured out.

The rifle was $1700, the scope, Vortex PST, 6x24, was $950. This is varmint rifle not a target rifle. It can be done for much less than a dedicated target rifle. I have seen an associates Savage, 308 Patroit, shoot smaller groups than mine, but he had been fiddleing with loads for a couple of years. I was impressed. This wasn't a target rifle either.

When I started reloading for centerfire rifles, in 1976, I remember reading in the Speer manual than the world benchrest record at that time was .038", essentially one hole, and that was five rounds. So for $5000 a one hole group should be easy.
 
I've got a .223 Rem, Tikka 595 that cost me $300, added a $150 for a Mueller 4.5-14 scope and she's shot consecutive 5/16" groups at 100 yards. No, it's not for sale, but Tikka T3s will do it, with a bit of tweaking and careful handloading!

Remington 700s of various configurations will do it. Weatherby Vanguard 2 will shoot under 1/2" with a bit of work as well.

Several people could provide a 3/8" minute rifle for $5k, and probably pocket more than $3K of it.
 
I think the OP include more that a rifle @ 5k "I'm not saying $5,000 is chump change, 'cause it ain't (at least to me). I'm just saying that if you have that kind of money to invest in a rifle, scope, rest, and a decent handloading setup, itty-bitty groups can be yours pretty easily."

I would thing NF scope run between $1200 to 2K add good Farley rest/reloading set up maybe custom dies maybe another $1500 rifle cost is getting lower on the rifle. Lot of combination one could use for the 5K.

I've owner factory rifles that shot 1/2" or less groups for 5 shots and I've had others that didn't.
 
i have two rem 700,s, one a vls .223 with a target burris 10x fine tapered crosshairs and it shoots .25 groups at 100yds easy with target reloads. two is a vls in .308 with a 6.5x20 leupold with a 1/8 minute dot and it will do .40groups at 100yds easy with target reloads. both rifles are stock with only the triggers adjusted the way i like them, both were bought new by me and broken in by me,laid side by side its hard to tell the difference. eastbank.
 
My 700SPS 7mm08 that I worked on this past winter shoots .5" or under any day of the week. I've gotten numerous groups that were one hole if I do my part. I have less than $1500 in the gun with a new stock, trigger, mag well, Weaver Super Slam, Timney Trigger, Duracoat etc. $5000.00 is rediculous in practical situations.
 
A $ 5,000 investment really isn't necessary to get an accurate rifle today from a number of manufacturers unless you're into bragging about what you spent.

All of my scopes cost about $ 400. All were on some sort of sale.

I have a CZ 527 Varmint with factory HS Precision Kevlar stock in .223 that has averaged 0.371 for its top 10 hand loads.
Its 2 favorite loads average 0.266 and 0.276.
Best factory ammo shot 0.336 out of the box.
Total cost was $1,180 with scope.
I have shot over 3300 rounds with it.

I have a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .22-250 that has averaged 0.396 for its top 10 hand loads.
Its 2 favorites average 0.374 an 0.375.
Best factory ammo shot 0.542 (before the stock and trigger replacement)
The base rifle cost $ 438 at Dick's on clearance. I added a B&C Medalist stock and Timney trigger.
Total cost was $ 1,185 with scope.
I have shot over 1400 rounds with it.

I have a Savage 10FP (Law Enforcement model) in .308 that has averaged 0.457 with its top 10 loads that include 150, 168 and 175 grain bullets.
Its top 2 loads are 0.326 and 0.380 with 168 and 150 grain bullets respectively.
Best factory ammo shot 0.457 out of the box.
The total cost was $1,110.
I have shot more than 4000 rounds with it.

If you had said $ 1,200-$ 1,500 instead of $ 5,000, I would have said "Amen"
 
frumious said:
Brian, are those 2012 dollars?

-cls
Click to expand...

Rifle might be $600+ in today's world but the scope is still $240. You're still well under 1/5 of the OPs number.

Think of this....

I can get a complete Savage rifle for around $500, brand new, worst case.

A very good barrel from any number of makers, Douglas, McGowen, Pac Nor, take your pick, only runs $250-$500, depending on options.

You take apart you Savage and sell it's barrel, stock and scope for at least $125. Now you've got a $325 action and a $500 barrel, maybe another $60 for the barrel lug and nut. Put those in a stock that goes anywhere from $150-$700, let's say $700, just to go crazy.

Now you've got $1575 in the rifle. This is effectively worst case. You could have done it, without affecting accuracy one bit, for $750.

Now, even though I'm confident this rifle would be EASILY under 1/2 MOA right now, let's says you send it out for truing and whatnot. That might run you $250. So, you're at $1,825, finished rifle.

Even if you added a $2,000 Nightforce scope, you're at $4,000, and you sure as all get-out don't need a $2,000 Nightforce to shoot 3/8 MOA.

Let's go the cheap route, none of which sacrifices accuracy. $325 action, $299 barrel, $150 stock, even splurge on the "truing" for $250, and top it with an excellent Sightron SII Big Sky scope for $450-ish.

You're at $1,500 and you've got a gun that will out shoot 99% of the people who get behind it.
 
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