On the way to the market
- Thread starter USP45usp
- Start date
- Status
TearsOfRage
New member
Yeah! You have inspired me to try open carry.
Maybe with my AK so someone will be sure to notice.
Remember, other minorities didn't get their rights by hiding in the closet.
Maybe with my AK so someone will be sure to notice.
Remember, other minorities didn't get their rights by hiding in the closet.
David Scott
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by USP45usp:
Her: YELLED, "call the manager, he's got a gun and is going to kill us all!".[/quote]
Me: Ma'am, that is a slanderous accusation made in front of witnesses. You will be hearing from my attorney.
Want to do some good publicity work? Find a pro-RKBA reporter and have them do a story on you exercising your open carry rights and how the uneducated public reacts.
Her: YELLED, "call the manager, he's got a gun and is going to kill us all!".[/quote]
Me: Ma'am, that is a slanderous accusation made in front of witnesses. You will be hearing from my attorney.
Want to do some good publicity work? Find a pro-RKBA reporter and have them do a story on you exercising your open carry rights and how the uneducated public reacts.
USP45usp,
Good job, neighbor.
A thought: Since the police seemed to know you/about you, they sort of knew why you open carry. Maybe you should make a point of letting the local Sheriff and Police Chief know your intentions so that their employees don't make the wrong assumption about you in future meetings. It would be awful if an officer misunderstood and fired on you.
------------------
NRA/GOA/SAF/USMC
Oregon residents please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our only "No compromise" gun lobby. http://www.oregonfirearms.org
Good job, neighbor.
A thought: Since the police seemed to know you/about you, they sort of knew why you open carry. Maybe you should make a point of letting the local Sheriff and Police Chief know your intentions so that their employees don't make the wrong assumption about you in future meetings. It would be awful if an officer misunderstood and fired on you.
------------------
NRA/GOA/SAF/USMC
Oregon residents please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our only "No compromise" gun lobby. http://www.oregonfirearms.org
J
Jeff, CA
Guest
You, sir, are a brave man.
Does anyone else live in an open carry state? If so, do you carry openly? If not, why not?
Does anyone else live in an open carry state? If so, do you carry openly? If not, why not?
Here is an article about another brave person in Pennsylvania:
http://www.pressenterpriseonline.com/
Open gun-toting is legal, unwise
By CHRIS KREPICH
Press Enterprise Writer
A man walked into Wal-Mart wearing a handgun in a shoulder holster in plain
view, and he started his shopping.
Other customers saw the gun and grew nervous. They told store managers, who
called Scott Township police, who asked the man to put the gun in his car.
As it turns out, however, there is no law against strapping on a six-gun and
walking down Main Street at high noon, just like in the Old West.
But local police officers don't advise it, saying that would defy common
sense. Several also say they would stop anybody wearing a gun and probably
ask him to turn it over until officers could check things out.
Carrying a concealed weapon, however, is clearly legal if you have a permit
-- and 4,500 to 5,000 Columbia County residents do, officials say.
The Wal-Mart shopper is one of them.
"He felt it was his right (to carry the firearm,) and it is, but it must be
concealed," said Scott Township Police Officer Paul Siciliano, who responded
to the call at the store. "He thought his holster was concealment."
Siciliano said as far as he is concerned, if a person has a permit to carry a
concealed weapon, then it should be carried concealed.
The gun must be completely covered, he said.
"I have no problem with people carrying weapons with the proper permits. But
conceal it."
Residents across the state, except in Philadelphia, don't need a concealed
weapon permit to carry a handgun as long as it's visible and registered, said
Columbia County Sheriff Harry Roadarmel and some area police officers.
"If you're walking around with a weapon openly, you're asking for more
problems," he said. "How many people will know how to handle an attack to
their gun?"
Siciliano and fellow Scott Officer Ray Klingler said laws on carrying guns
are vague and cause officers to make interpretations. But they said if they
see someone carrying a weapon openly, they will stop the person and probably
secure the gun until the matter can be sorted out.
"The problem is Pennsylvania doesn't flat out say you can't carry (a firearm)
outwardly without a permit," said Siciliano. "But you shouldn't. It comes
down to common sense."
Millville Police Chief Ted Smith said people can carry firearms "like the Old
West guys did." Anyone can walk in any restaurant or most other businesses
with an unconcealed weapon, he said.
"If it's in plain view and people can see it, it's not against the law," said
Stout. "There's no law against carrying a gun. It's the right to bear arms."
However Stout suggested that people who wish to carry firearms obtain a
permit through the sheriff's department.
Stout, Siciliano and Klingler agree that anyone with a permit for a concealed
weapon must carry it concealed.
Siciliano and Klingler said they've never come across someone carrying a
firearm openly without a permit. If they do, they said, they will take the
firearm and ask the county district attorney to determine if any judge has
ruled on similar case in the past.
Rules on concealment
State residents may carry a firearm concealed on their person or in a vehicle
with the proper permit.
Residents over 21 must complete an application to carry firearms, and such
people are subject to a number of background checks, said Roadarmel.
The background check looks at the applicant's criminal history, mental health
history, seeks protection from abuse orders, and includes checks with the FBI
and the Pennsylvania Instant Check system.
Permits cost $19 and are good for five years.
Roadarmel said 4,500 to 5,000 people in Columbia County have concealed-weapon
permits, which are good anywhere in the state, except where carrying guns is
specifically prohibited.
Roadarmel said firearms are not permitted in courthouses, banks, federal
buildings and post offices.
He said 14 permits have been denied since 1998 in Columbia County, and he
gets about 40 to 45 new applications a month.
Applications increase, especially among women, when there are cases of rape,
home invasion and other violent crimes in the area, said the sheriff.
He said the ratio used to be about one of every 25 gun permits was held by a
woman. Now, he added, it's about one in five.
Weapons and outdoorsmen
There are also permits for carrying firearms for hunting and fishing.
Siciliano said the rules state the weapons must be carried openly and not
concealed or loaded when in transit.
Columbia County Treasurer Shirley Drake said a person must have a valid
hunting or fishing license in conjunction with a sportsman firearm license.
She said 127 sportsman permits were issued in 1999, and 30 so far this year
have been purchased.
The permits cost $6, are good for five years, cover all guns owned the
purchaser and don't require background checks, said Drake.
------------------
There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.
http://www.pressenterpriseonline.com/
Open gun-toting is legal, unwise
By CHRIS KREPICH
Press Enterprise Writer
A man walked into Wal-Mart wearing a handgun in a shoulder holster in plain
view, and he started his shopping.
Other customers saw the gun and grew nervous. They told store managers, who
called Scott Township police, who asked the man to put the gun in his car.
As it turns out, however, there is no law against strapping on a six-gun and
walking down Main Street at high noon, just like in the Old West.
But local police officers don't advise it, saying that would defy common
sense. Several also say they would stop anybody wearing a gun and probably
ask him to turn it over until officers could check things out.
Carrying a concealed weapon, however, is clearly legal if you have a permit
-- and 4,500 to 5,000 Columbia County residents do, officials say.
The Wal-Mart shopper is one of them.
"He felt it was his right (to carry the firearm,) and it is, but it must be
concealed," said Scott Township Police Officer Paul Siciliano, who responded
to the call at the store. "He thought his holster was concealment."
Siciliano said as far as he is concerned, if a person has a permit to carry a
concealed weapon, then it should be carried concealed.
The gun must be completely covered, he said.
"I have no problem with people carrying weapons with the proper permits. But
conceal it."
Residents across the state, except in Philadelphia, don't need a concealed
weapon permit to carry a handgun as long as it's visible and registered, said
Columbia County Sheriff Harry Roadarmel and some area police officers.
"If you're walking around with a weapon openly, you're asking for more
problems," he said. "How many people will know how to handle an attack to
their gun?"
Siciliano and fellow Scott Officer Ray Klingler said laws on carrying guns
are vague and cause officers to make interpretations. But they said if they
see someone carrying a weapon openly, they will stop the person and probably
secure the gun until the matter can be sorted out.
"The problem is Pennsylvania doesn't flat out say you can't carry (a firearm)
outwardly without a permit," said Siciliano. "But you shouldn't. It comes
down to common sense."
Millville Police Chief Ted Smith said people can carry firearms "like the Old
West guys did." Anyone can walk in any restaurant or most other businesses
with an unconcealed weapon, he said.
"If it's in plain view and people can see it, it's not against the law," said
Stout. "There's no law against carrying a gun. It's the right to bear arms."
However Stout suggested that people who wish to carry firearms obtain a
permit through the sheriff's department.
Stout, Siciliano and Klingler agree that anyone with a permit for a concealed
weapon must carry it concealed.
Siciliano and Klingler said they've never come across someone carrying a
firearm openly without a permit. If they do, they said, they will take the
firearm and ask the county district attorney to determine if any judge has
ruled on similar case in the past.
Rules on concealment
State residents may carry a firearm concealed on their person or in a vehicle
with the proper permit.
Residents over 21 must complete an application to carry firearms, and such
people are subject to a number of background checks, said Roadarmel.
The background check looks at the applicant's criminal history, mental health
history, seeks protection from abuse orders, and includes checks with the FBI
and the Pennsylvania Instant Check system.
Permits cost $19 and are good for five years.
Roadarmel said 4,500 to 5,000 people in Columbia County have concealed-weapon
permits, which are good anywhere in the state, except where carrying guns is
specifically prohibited.
Roadarmel said firearms are not permitted in courthouses, banks, federal
buildings and post offices.
He said 14 permits have been denied since 1998 in Columbia County, and he
gets about 40 to 45 new applications a month.
Applications increase, especially among women, when there are cases of rape,
home invasion and other violent crimes in the area, said the sheriff.
He said the ratio used to be about one of every 25 gun permits was held by a
woman. Now, he added, it's about one in five.
Weapons and outdoorsmen
There are also permits for carrying firearms for hunting and fishing.
Siciliano said the rules state the weapons must be carried openly and not
concealed or loaded when in transit.
Columbia County Treasurer Shirley Drake said a person must have a valid
hunting or fishing license in conjunction with a sportsman firearm license.
She said 127 sportsman permits were issued in 1999, and 30 so far this year
have been purchased.
The permits cost $6, are good for five years, cover all guns owned the
purchaser and don't require background checks, said Drake.
------------------
There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.
In Virginia concealed carry isn't allowed in restaurants that serve alcohol. Open carry is still legal, tho.
I know several people who carry openly in restaurants, as I do. Occasionally I'll get a weird look, but nothing like this. Thanks for the heads-up, though, as knowing about this MMM tactic means I can be prepared to counter it.
I know several people who carry openly in restaurants, as I do. Occasionally I'll get a weird look, but nothing like this. Thanks for the heads-up, though, as knowing about this MMM tactic means I can be prepared to counter it.
I would have arrested her for attempting to incite a riot. That lady was a idiot, I have a hard time feeling anything but disgust for people like that. As usual USP45, you were in the right, it's the rest of the world that's crazy, this lady just put forth a little extra effort to prove it.
Brett Bellmore
New member
Now, THAT'S a bizzare thought; They're claiming that it's legal to carry openly, but not if you've got a concealed carry permit???
Here in Michigan open carry is legal, but concealed carry requires a permit, and we're not a "shall issue" state. Worse yet, the practice is to charge people who open carry with "brandishing" or creating a public disturbance, and legal precident backs that up.
------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
Here in Michigan open carry is legal, but concealed carry requires a permit, and we're not a "shall issue" state. Worse yet, the practice is to charge people who open carry with "brandishing" or creating a public disturbance, and legal precident backs that up.
------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
Interesting idea. In Virgina you can't carry concealed in a restaunt but you can "OPEN".
So I walk up ,and right before I go in the door, I tuck my shirt in to expose my weapon. Eat my meal, Pay, step outside, untuck, and go about my business.
Supid laws require Stupid behavor.
------------------
"Take your weapon with reluctance. Draw it with dread. Grieve for those who fall to your bullets. But make every shot count."-Robert Shea
So I walk up ,and right before I go in the door, I tuck my shirt in to expose my weapon. Eat my meal, Pay, step outside, untuck, and go about my business.
Supid laws require Stupid behavor.
------------------
"Take your weapon with reluctance. Draw it with dread. Grieve for those who fall to your bullets. But make every shot count."-Robert Shea
I've noticed that also. Some States, where it legal to open carry, state that if you have a CHL then you MUST carry concealed. It seems that you've given up a Right for the "privaledge"(sp) of carrying your firearm. As for the "common sense" thing in the article, it wouldn't be the first time someone has stated that I have no common sense 
. I do practice for situations if someone tries to "grab" my gun. First of all, I use a holster with a snap retainer. Second, I ensure my "free" space or personal space is not violated. I do put my arm down to cover the gun and move away if someone invades my free space. It's a great responsiblity and sometimes it doesn't seem it's worth the trouble but then I remember that if I don't use my Rights, then they may just "disappear" with the next round of politics.
USP45usp
. I do practice for situations if someone tries to "grab" my gun. First of all, I use a holster with a snap retainer. Second, I ensure my "free" space or personal space is not violated. I do put my arm down to cover the gun and move away if someone invades my free space. It's a great responsiblity and sometimes it doesn't seem it's worth the trouble but then I remember that if I don't use my Rights, then they may just "disappear" with the next round of politics. USP45usp
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Residents across the state, except in Philadelphia, don't need a concealed
weapon permit to carry a handgun as long as it's visible and registered, said
Columbia County Sheriff Harry Roadarmel and some area police officers. [/quote]
Visible and registered? Last I checked (4 weeks ago) PA does not require handgun registration.
Marty
Residents across the state, except in Philadelphia, don't need a concealed
weapon permit to carry a handgun as long as it's visible and registered, said
Columbia County Sheriff Harry Roadarmel and some area police officers. [/quote]
Visible and registered? Last I checked (4 weeks ago) PA does not require handgun registration.
Marty
The PA State Police have been maintaining a list of names, addresses, make, model, etc of every gun purchased in the state since the 30's.
There is some noise being made about this since PA's laws strictly forbid any kind of gun registry, but Governor Ridge refuses to do anything about it. The state police claim that it's only a sales database and not gun registration.
If you live in the state, be sure to write your reps.
There is some noise being made about this since PA's laws strictly forbid any kind of gun registry, but Governor Ridge refuses to do anything about it. The state police claim that it's only a sales database and not gun registration.
If you live in the state, be sure to write your reps.
Congrats on carrying openly and on the way you comported yourself. An example to us all.
In Virginia we can carry openly - even in PC Fairfax County. We can only carry openly when we go into establishments that serve alcohol by the drink.
Most of my Friday night (social) shooting group carry openly when we go out to eat after an hour together on the range.
There have been several incidents of other patrons summoning police but the police just shrug it off (they have never even approached us). One restaurateur was given some bum information (He'd lose his Liquor License if he allowed open carry) but one of our group who had the time took the time to quietly straighten him out. Since then we've been welcomed with open arms there too.
Incidentally, the annual Gun Rights Policy Conference is coming up Sep 29, 30 & Oct 1 in Crystal City, Virginia. The Virginia Citizens Defense League (grassroots RKBA) will be there. We are looking to hook up with reps from other grassroots groups. Please contact me if you are planning to attend so we can be sure to connect.
------------------
Bad Things Happen When Good People Do Nothing
[This message has been edited by INOV8TN (edited September 13, 2000).]
In Virginia we can carry openly - even in PC Fairfax County. We can only carry openly when we go into establishments that serve alcohol by the drink.
Most of my Friday night (social) shooting group carry openly when we go out to eat after an hour together on the range.
There have been several incidents of other patrons summoning police but the police just shrug it off (they have never even approached us). One restaurateur was given some bum information (He'd lose his Liquor License if he allowed open carry) but one of our group who had the time took the time to quietly straighten him out. Since then we've been welcomed with open arms there too.
Incidentally, the annual Gun Rights Policy Conference
is coming up Sep 29, 30 & Oct 1 in Crystal City, Virginia. The Virginia Citizens Defense League (grassroots RKBA) will be there. We are looking to hook up with reps from other grassroots groups. Please contact me if you are planning to attend so we can be sure to connect.------------------
Bad Things Happen When Good People Do Nothing
[This message has been edited by INOV8TN (edited September 13, 2000).]
GOOD JOB!! I think she was just trying to start trouble. If she truely believed you to be a threat she would have been running for the door, hitting the floor, or climbing onto the shelves attempting to hide behind the flour not making a 'Clymer' of herself. It may be a recommended action by the MMM to cause distress so that laws are changed and more rights taken away. The manager handled it well and if he thought you were a threat he obviously would not have asked you to the back office.
Consider sueing, BUT
1. Make certain that she is a home owner. She may have liability insurance to cover a willful tort action. She accused you of conspiracy to commit murder, a felony. It is one of the few instances where a slander or liable suit is effectively a done deal. If she owns the home and the home owners insurance has a willful tort exclusion clause you can check county courthouse records to see if she has been in the house for any length of time which means that she will have equity in it. If no house see if she has a nice car or other assets.
2. Get a copy of the police report with the names of the officers and the store manager. You attorney will need these names for depossions.
3. Contact the attorney with the info. Try to pick a pro-gun attorney. Offer to split the take 50/50. They usually only get 25-33% in contingency cases.
4. Check if slander is a misdemeanor in your state. It is in some. If so file a criminal complaint and press charges. You may get to place her under arrest and have a LEO act as the transporting officer.
5. Make her life miserable.
Consider sueing, BUT
1. Make certain that she is a home owner. She may have liability insurance to cover a willful tort action. She accused you of conspiracy to commit murder, a felony. It is one of the few instances where a slander or liable suit is effectively a done deal. If she owns the home and the home owners insurance has a willful tort exclusion clause you can check county courthouse records to see if she has been in the house for any length of time which means that she will have equity in it. If no house see if she has a nice car or other assets.
2. Get a copy of the police report with the names of the officers and the store manager. You attorney will need these names for depossions.
3. Contact the attorney with the info. Try to pick a pro-gun attorney. Offer to split the take 50/50. They usually only get 25-33% in contingency cases.
4. Check if slander is a misdemeanor in your state. It is in some. If so file a criminal complaint and press charges. You may get to place her under arrest and have a LEO act as the transporting officer.
5. Make her life miserable.
Guy B. Meredith
New member
Bubbles,
Love your website. Tempted to tick off my yuppie sister by mailing her a reference to the site.
Love your website. Tempted to tick off my yuppie sister by mailing her a reference to the site.
How law inteferes with evolution:
Evolutionary theory says that defective traits will be eliminated because the defective animals are less likely to reproduce (i.e. less attractive mates, more likely to have been killed).
From a strictly evolutionary point of view, this woman is defective because, as stated before, the person stupid enough to stand there and give a warning will be the first person shot. Her stupidity is counterproductive to survival. Accordingly, the human species would benefit from her elimination from the gene pool. However, it is illegal to shoot her. Thus, the law protects a clearly defective member of society.
Evolutionary theory says that defective traits will be eliminated because the defective animals are less likely to reproduce (i.e. less attractive mates, more likely to have been killed).
From a strictly evolutionary point of view, this woman is defective because, as stated before, the person stupid enough to stand there and give a warning will be the first person shot. Her stupidity is counterproductive to survival. Accordingly, the human species would benefit from her elimination from the gene pool. However, it is illegal to shoot her. Thus, the law protects a clearly defective member of society.
I called the Police department (trying to get info for another TFL'er) and they didn't take a report of the incident (according to them). When I was in the office with the mmm and the manager, they (the police) did not take our names or ask for identification. I've been questioned before by the police (in another state) and, considering the stress I was under, didn't realize until I called that they didn't ask for ID or make any notes that I could see. They didn't leave a case number or a filing number that I could reference when I did call the police station.
I have also been reading the local paper (I don't buy it, my next door neighbor is in the hospital so I read his and then give the paper to the person (my uncle) who is taking care of his house) and haven't seen any mention of the incident; from either the media or the local mmm chapter.
The local lawyer (who really isn't my lawyer but was the only one that called me back to answer some questions I had when I first got here) did mention over the phone that this county has a anti-gun DA and the head DA or AG in Portland is a strict supporter of ginny bur? (some rep. for Portland who is trying to pass as many gun control bills she can) and that I would be wasting my time and money to try to sue. I've been thinking of trying to email some of the pro-gun lawyers from The Gun Guy's website to see what they say or if they have a local/state rep. in Oregon.
Over all, just from thinking about the whole incident, there are a few things that I could have done better or at least ensured that it was documented. Hey, this was my "first" time being confronted in this manner and I was more scared of other people's reactions, including the police, that I didn't think about asking for a report to be made or for a file/case number. I'm not good with names but I will remember a face forever. This is a "small" city and maybe I will have another run in with this lady again. If I do, I'll try to catch her name for documentation purposes. I also plan on attending some of the mmm open forum meetings that they have here (read in the paper a few weeks back that they were having a meeting but I read the paper the day after it was printed) and get the names of the members.
With all that has happened, I'm sure that I may get to meet some of these ladies again. They don't have my name (as far as I know) but they may remember faces. As for the manager, I haven't been back to that store since then.
Hey, I'm learning. I don't have the experience like FUD.
*Just jiving ya FUD
USP45usp
I have also been reading the local paper (I don't buy it, my next door neighbor is in the hospital so I read his and then give the paper to the person (my uncle) who is taking care of his house) and haven't seen any mention of the incident; from either the media or the local mmm chapter.
The local lawyer (who really isn't my lawyer but was the only one that called me back to answer some questions I had when I first got here) did mention over the phone that this county has a anti-gun DA and the head DA or AG in Portland is a strict supporter of ginny bur? (some rep. for Portland who is trying to pass as many gun control bills she can) and that I would be wasting my time and money to try to sue. I've been thinking of trying to email some of the pro-gun lawyers from The Gun Guy's website to see what they say or if they have a local/state rep. in Oregon.
Over all, just from thinking about the whole incident, there are a few things that I could have done better or at least ensured that it was documented. Hey, this was my "first" time being confronted in this manner and I was more scared of other people's reactions, including the police, that I didn't think about asking for a report to be made or for a file/case number. I'm not good with names but I will remember a face forever. This is a "small" city and maybe I will have another run in with this lady again. If I do, I'll try to catch her name for documentation purposes. I also plan on attending some of the mmm open forum meetings that they have here (read in the paper a few weeks back that they were having a meeting but I read the paper the day after it was printed) and get the names of the members.
With all that has happened, I'm sure that I may get to meet some of these ladies again. They don't have my name (as far as I know) but they may remember faces. As for the manager, I haven't been back to that store since then.
Hey, I'm learning. I don't have the experience like FUD
.*Just jiving ya FUD
USP45usp
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by USP45usp:
...I may get to meet some of these ladies again. They don't have my name (as far as I know) but they may remember faces.[/quote]
USP, it sounds like she was soooo terrorized by the big, ugly gun on your hip that her eyes never made it up to your face. (Hmmm....a new way to get chicks to stare at that region of my body!)
------------------
"People who say guns are bad are lucky enough never to have been in a situation where someone has kicked down your door and threatened the life of your son and your sixty-five-year-old mother."
-- Memphis, Tennessee resident Gina Cushon, quoted in Laura Ingraham's book "The Hillary Trap"
...I may get to meet some of these ladies again. They don't have my name (as far as I know) but they may remember faces.[/quote]
USP, it sounds like she was soooo terrorized by the big, ugly gun on your hip that her eyes never made it up to your face. (Hmmm....a new way to get chicks to stare at that region of my body!)
------------------
"People who say guns are bad are lucky enough never to have been in a situation where someone has kicked down your door and threatened the life of your son and your sixty-five-year-old mother."
-- Memphis, Tennessee resident Gina Cushon, quoted in Laura Ingraham's book "The Hillary Trap"
- Status