on stopping power

To suggest that American shooters prefer an American cartridge like the .45 or .40 caliber because they want to substitute bullet size for marksmanship, is an insult to many shooters on this forum, not to mention many hundreds of thousands throughout the rest of the country.

I have no doubt that the average shooter who shoots .45 or .40 caliber is more proficient with the 9mm, as well, than the average shooter of 9mm only.
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It was not meant to be disrespectful, it is just a fact that as Americans we have a "bigger is better" mentality overall. However is bigger is not always better. What I am trying to say, more than anything else, is there are more important factors than caliber. I personally shoot better with my Glock 22 than I do my PX4 9mm, because it feels better in my hands. A friend of mine shoots better with the G17 than the G22 because of the recoil difference.

My personal favorite is the .40, because I feel its the best of both worlds. The basic argument here can be paralleled to athletics. What is better speed and agility (9mm) or power and strength (.45)? As an amateur boxer I want the best of both, so a middle ground( .40) between the two is best in my opinion.

But in the end the final say will come down to shot/punch placement. You do not have to hit hard, if you can hit the right spot.
 
It was not meant to be disrespectful, it is just a fact that as Americans we have a "bigger is better" mentality overall. However is bigger is not always better.
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My main point is that the .45 is an American tradition, chosen by millions of shooters because it was our standard service pistol cartridge for 80 yrs. or better.

I was just rejecting what seemed to be the implication that Americans would choose such a cartridge over a foreign creation because they were trying to make up for lack of skill.

Because we have the 2nd Amendment, we have the opportunity to become proficient with any caliber we wish, and the .45 ACP is just one cartridge that millions of Americans have become proficient with. Citizens of most other world countries aren't even allowed to own hand guns, if they can own any guns at all.
 
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Newton24b said:
(edited for brevity) However whenever someone looks at the Taurus Judge revolvers, the aspects of buckshot that makeit IDEAL in a shotgun, make it WORTHLESS for self defense against anything but a bag of cottonballs if you listen to experts.
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If you don't trust the experts you can be your own. The .410 shotgun with buckshot throws 3 balls out of a short barrel. A 12 gauge throws 9 balls out of a much longer barrel, so has better velocity. None of that is judgement. Those are two, plain facts. The "expert" conclusion is that the Judge's .410 shotgun load is not as effective as even the 45 Colt load from the same gun. But that is an opinion with which you may agree or disagree, based on your thoughts on the two firm facts.

The same thinking goes to ballistic gelatin conclusions vs wet newspaper, the Strasbourg tests on live goats vs the Hatcher tests on dead humans and the Mashall & Sanow data on real shootings vs any of the other analyses on case-by case investigations.

Mossad uses 22 rimfires to great one-shot immediate kill effect, 9mm has killed more people worldwide since handguns were invented than any other single caliber, 45 ACP has a great track record and 40 S&W is building one fast. .357 mag has a good track record, too, but 12 gauge has more momentum and kinetic energy than any handgun.

All facts. All with caveats. Mossad's kills are mostly executions. 9mm has more kills because there are more of them around (bullets and guns) 45 ACP and 40 S&W have enough frontal area and mass to have an effect on the shootee, expanded or not; .357 mag has energy to spare and the 12 gauge....well kind of speaks for itself.

Everyone has an opinion and most have more than one. I know I do.

Lost Sheep

How about a 1/4 pound bean bag at 550 fps? (This is 4 times the weight and twice the velocity of the standard 12 gauge "bean bag" load), but would be my choice for urban home defense if I could find one like that.
 
I was just rejecting what seemed to be the implication that Americans would choose such a cartridge over a foreign creation because they were trying to make up for lack of skill.
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Well this could be a regional thing, but I have spoken to many people down here where I live now that their argument for the .45 is because it is bigger I don't need to accurate. So there are Americans that choose the .45 to make up for their lack skill. Not everyone is that way and I was not trying to imply that every .45 user was, but there are many (in my area at least) that do.

I'm a military trained shooter and I personally feel comfortable firing just about anything, but right now I am most comfortable with my .40 cal so that is what I'm going to use. Comfort and ability are king in my opinion. I personally will not own a .45 for a while, but that has nothing to do cartridges ability and everything to do with it's cost.

As I have trying to convey, my opinion is that the size of the cartridge is not that relevant when it comes to actually stopping a person. I have seen small cartridges such as the 9mm and the 5.56/223 get the job done in a single shot on more than one occasion. I am not saying the 9mm is better than the .45, they both have the potential to end lives when used properly. It is the shooter not the caliber.
 
It is the shooter not the caliber.
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Unfortunately, the shooter isn't what does the tissue damage and the shooter doesn't have control over the makeup and orientation of the target.

Claude Deckard was an excellent shooter. During a gunfight with a cop killer, Deckard shot a nice tight group at 100 yards and missing the killer with every single shot, could not figure out what he was doing wrong, got blasted by the killer and they gave him an award for marksmanship and coolness under fire.

Deckard's five shots with his custom Government Model .45 came within inches of stopping Cantwell. He had exhibited enviable marksmanship and coolness under superior fire at 100 yards, and subsequently was awarded the Distinguished Law Enforcement Award by the Illinois Police Association. He just didn't have the hold-over right. No one can blame him.
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As I recall, the best FBI agent at the Miami FBI shootout was a top not shooter, Ben Grogan, but he lost his glasses and wasn't much of a serious factor in the fight as a result and was killed.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_159_26/ai_90099697/?tag=content;col1
 
Well this could be a regional thing, but I have spoken to many people down here where I live now that their argument for the .45 is because it is bigger I don't need to accurate. So there are Americans that choose the .45 to make up for their lack skill. Not everyone is that way and I was not trying to imply that every .45 user was, but there are many (in my area at least) that do.
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Accuracy is required no matter what the caliber. With mousegun calibers, the high degree of accuracy required makes them impractable, since putting a bullet thru an eye socket or earhole is rather difficult during the stress of a gun fight---No, I haven't been in one, but that's what they say.;)

The 9mm with the latest in bullet technology isn't that far from the .45 or .40to worry about. At least I don't worry about it on the days I carry a 9mm, though I prefer to carry a .40 or .45 (and usually do).

Real life shootings show the 9mm can be CONSISTENTLY effective with good ammo. The same documented shootings all so bear out that the 9mm with ball ammo or older generic tecnology can be highly inefficient.

A slight edge goes to the .40 and .45 which, IMO, produce similar results. Same for the .357 SIG. I believe that bullet selection within the caliber can be as important as the caliber itself. EVERY caliber has it's inefficent bullet designs.

It might be, and I can't prove it, that the bigger or hotter calibers prove their worth over the 9mm not in "average" shootings, but rather in those rare events when one is faced with a homicidal individual who isn't afraid to die, acting on pure adrenaline, and who's determined to take as many with him as he can---read Michael Platt of Miami shootout fame (or infamy).

Ed Mereles, who ended the shootout felt the same way. He switched to the P220 .45 ACP and opted for a bigger bullet. At least one other surviver of the Miami shooting opted for the P226 9mm and higher ammo capacity. I respect the choices of either man--they are the ones who made choices based on real life experience.

With even better bullets available today for the 9mm, like HST, DPX, and Gold Dot, a good case can be made for the 9mm and lots of bullets--- but that ammo makes the .45 and .40 better, also.:cool:

Dang, meant to type a short reply and ended up with a dissertation. Dang Red Bull, again.:D
 
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Claude Deckard was an excellent shooter
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I don't know what the particular case was here, but I know that there are people that can shoot really well in a slow fire, known distance course, engaging a single target, and static and using supported positions and there are people who shoot well on the move, with reactive targets, unknown distances, and unstable positions and platforms, and at times engaging multiple targets while sometimes being timed in what we called EMP (Enhanced Marksmanship Program) courses. Just because you are good at one does not automatically mean you are good at the other.

But the shooter does matter a great deal, the example you provided also shows that the caliber chosen does nothing if you can't hit your target when you need to.
 
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Don't forget the actual dimensions you are talking about here.

9mm = .355"
.45 = .450"

Difference = .100"....

100% expansion

9mm = .710"

.45 = .900"

Difference = .190"....

Now go out and shoot at a 3X5 index card at 7 yards as quickly as you can fire and reacquire the target with and use a stop watch. Count the number of holes and calculate the surface difference in effective surface area between the rounds you fired over the time it took you to fire the rounds. Compare the 2 or more rounds you are interested in.

Make your decision if YOU are capable of utilizing an extra 1/4" diameter of theoretical expansion or 100 thousandths of guaranteed diameter increase.

Most people are VERY surprised at the results they get.;)

There really isn't such a thing as "stopping power" but there is such a thing as "operator effectiveness".
 
There's not a lot of difference, but to the extent that there is, the 9mm is a little bit more likely to defeat body armor than .45ACP due to the smaller frontal area. The information in your link bears this out. If you scroll down to the description of the various protection levels of body armor, you'll see that one of the rounds stopped by a II but not by a IIa is actually the 124gr 9mm +P while all .45ACP rounds were stopped by the IIa.

For what it's worth, you can't test "stopping power" on body armor because body armor doesn't move and therefore can't be "stopped". ;)
 
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