on stopping power

Newton24b

Moderator
here is the problem, everyone seems tobe in a tizzy with handgun stopping power. There are a few issues with that that need to be addressed.

The FBI standard is for the bullet to travel from the muzzle and hit balistic gelatin that is calibrated to offer the same resistance as SOFT TISSUE< shooting something in the stomach, not through the rib cage or sternum.

Alot of good self defense ammunition has proven good on soft tissue but absolutely worthless for hunting, cant punch through pig or deer. But yet some of the best hunting ammunition for a handugn has been relegated as useless because itll expand to .5 inches and punch through 2 feet of gelatin, but the "good" self defense ammo all expands to .6+ and onlky penetrates half a foot.....


Buckshot in a shotgun is considered the greatest thing since short women started wearing pushup brassieres. THe selling point is LIMITED RANGE< LIMITED PENETRATION IN WALLS and SHOT DISPERSAL that gives you a 3-5 inch buffer zone around you point of aim.
However whenever someone looks at the Taurus Judge revolvers, the aspects of buckshot that makeit IDEAL in a shotgun, make it WORTHLESS for self defense against anything but a bag of cottonballs if you listen to experts.

a .22 short will meet the FBI standard from a revolver. It exceeds it in a rifle. The .32 caliber percussion revolver you can get at cabelas BEATS the fbi standard, yet those are considered inferior to the "barely acceptable" .25acp because the 25 acp will meet standards with fmj, and even if it makes a jhp expand it still has a tendency to make around 12 inches in gelatin.
 
You should read up on the FBI protocols. There are 9 of them. Most people only the internet only test the first two. Believe me, the 3rd one would show the weakness of a great many lighter rounds as well as the Judge. It would also display the strength of the "hunting" ammo that doesn't expand as much.
 
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From what I read the FBI requires 14 inches of penetration. Say it someone is shooting at you and you shoot back and hit them in the arm the bullet should be able to shatter the arm and still penetrate the body
 
Carry pistols are significantly lower powered than magnum hunting pistols.

A Taurus Judge isn't exactly comparable to full size 12 gauge shotgun. If you can find a good one, it would probably be quite effective if you can find a 00 or 000 buckshot load that actually patterns well. However, most advocates of the Taurus Judge don't seem interested in buckshot. It's also a large and heavy revolver that would be difficult to carry.

No one seriously advocates the .22 short nor black powder revolvers for defense, and you seem to be ignoring issues of reliability, difficulties with firing such firearms indoors, and ease of carry.
 
This is a great, more scientific look at handgun stopping power:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Do read the information below the tables explaining the data. The 9mm seems weak when looking at the data in terms of number of shots to incapacitation, but over half of shootings with it involved FMJ ammo.

Here's a good read on drywall penetration. You're actually better using an AR for home defense than any handgun...
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428
 
Stopping power..............DRT..........?????

Forget the FBI, forget shooting bluejeans, jello, and dry wall.

Look at reality. All you have to do is read the news. Seldom does ANY handgun kill the shootee right away. They crawl off, found down the street, at the hospital, in the get away car...........sure they may die, but not right away.

What does happen, they stop what they are doing. They normally run, give up, try to find help, what ever they normally stop the attack.

You hear of "drug crazed" bandits that continue the attack, but you don't find that in the newspapers..............Why.

Because its rarer then hens teeth. Except may in the Philippines that led to the adoption of the 1911. That's in the history books, not in the news.

I've been to a lot of autopsies, I noticed no two bullets do the same thing, even the same bullet out of the same gun. But they almost always stop the bandit from doing what he was doing, whether its a 22 or 44.

Instead of reading and putting faith in this and that study, look at the news paper. Read about every shooting you can and see what really happens.

I'm not a big fan of studies. I remember in the late 70s reading that a FMJ 9mm has more stopping power then a FMJ 45, because of the starting and ending KE. Since the 9mm lost more velocity passing through the medium, it left its energy in the target.

That was the last study I ever really read. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it was flawed.

What none of these test and studies take into account is the nervous system. The exception to that was the Thompson-LaGrand test, or P.O. Ackley's donkey shooting.

Read the newspapers, see what the shootee (dude that's shot) does after he's shot. Again seldom is he DRT, seldom does he continue his evil deeds.
 
I agree that if I were ever in the situation where I had to shoot someone (I pray every night that doesn't happen) that my main goal is to STOP the attack or whatever is happening, not to necessarily kill the person. I know if the shoe was on the other foot and I was shot it would stop me and put me down or get me running the hell out of there. That's why I feel safe carrying my 380 with hollow points or critical defense rounds. It may not KILL someone but it's sure going to stop someone and injure them enough to make them think twice about what they're doing. That's my opinion anyways. I did actually have a friend tell me that with a 380 you're better off using fmj for protection because you get better penetration, so that I am not sure of.
 
The argument that the bad guy will stop what hes doing if shot is iffy to me. The thing is, there is a very tiny chance you will draw your gun in defense. If you do, there is another tiny chance that you will actually have to fire it. Most cases will be diffused by the presence of an armed civilian. So, if you do have to fire it, the actual chances that the person will be a drug-crazed (or simply adrenalized) bad guy are higher than you are giving credit for, simply due to the fact that things have escalated to this point. Again, this is all assuming you've drawn and the guy is still choosing to attack the guy with the gun. So in this case, stopping power does matter, because what are the chances being shot is going to be a surprise to the individual charging the guy with the gun?

The above is one scenario. Maybe the guy doesn't know you have the gun. But the handgun itself is a compromise. The chances of needing to draw, and needing to fire, are so small, that by the time you are doing these things you will probably want the biggest, baddest round you can find. Why limit yourself to weak rounds just because you think the guy will stop if shot? You are arming yourself for the possibility of needing the gun to stop someone, otherwise just carry an airsoft gun to scare the guy away.
 
arentol
You should read up on the FBI protocols. There are 9 of them. Most people only the internet only test the first two. Believe me, the 3rd one would show the weakness of a great many lighter rounds as well as the Judge. It would also display the strength of the "hunting" ammo that doesn't expand as much.

For those who don't know the test protocols; see following:

Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.

Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.

Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.
The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.

Test Event 4: Wallboard Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.

Test Event 5: Plywood One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.

Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.

Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.

Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15° offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.

In addition to the above described series of test events, each cartridge is tested for velocity and accuracy. Twenty rounds are fired through a test barrel and twenty rounds are fired through the service weapon used in the penetration tests. All velocities are measured and reported.
1991 Ammunition Test, Volume III, U.S. Department of Justice, FBI; March 1992, page 2 & 3.

Most people realize that the FBI ammunition tests are not a measure of handgun stopping power, but a means to compare handgun ammunition tested.

One lesson to be learned from the 1986 Miami shootout is that a human can take a great deal of damage (even non-survivable hits such as the first hit Platt took in the fight from Dove) and continue to fight.
W. French Anderson, M.D. in his "Forensic Analysis of the April 11. 1986, FBI Firefight" states in his Preface page vii "The fundamental point of Forensic Analysis is that even when the human body sustains enormous damage, if the will is there the person can continue fighting and surviving."

He notes that Matix's ability to function after receiving a head wound delivered by McNeil near the beginning of the firefight that contused Matix's brain "was extraordinary".

Dr. French quotes Dr. Barnhart, "Following total cardiac arrest [or even a shotgun blast that completely disrupts the heart], the brain, spinal cord, and muscles can have the capacity to react in a purposful and coordinated manner for up to 15 seconds. Think how much havoc can be perpetuated in this fairly long period of time in a mortal situation." p. xiii

The fundamental point is if you can still think and move, then you can still fight; only when your brain or heart stops, or you choose to give up, does your ability to fight back cease." French, p. xiii

If you accept Dr. French's fundamental point; then you should choose the most devastating cartridge that you can competently handle and will bet your life on. All you will have is what you have chosen and are in possession of, to stop a deadly threat. This is most likely to be an under-powered handgun rather than a long arm which would likely be both more powerful (devastating wounds) and more accurate than a defensive handgun.

I submit that all "defensive cartridges" (those cartridges which include the 9mm para, but less than full powered .44 mag) are under-powered, that is why we are taught to shoot at least twice to center of mass, assess and proceed as necessary.
 
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I found this to be an interesting point of view - a mortician who does over 8 autopsies per day, year-round. This all relates to bullet performance in real shootings, not gelatin. Regarding handguns, he says if the dead guy has one bullet in him, it's probably a .45 or .40 (a slight edge is given to the .45). If there are multiple bullets in him, it's probably a 9mm or .38.

Sorry if this has been posted before...

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
 
Morticians do autopsies? But I take your point. Wonder what the ones that got away look like?

I agree it is complicated. One can suffer a lethal wound and barely feel it at first and one can be knocked down by a blow that does not even cause a bruise or a wound, not that either of those can be achieved with a pistol cartridge.
 
I spent one evening on the internet checking out some of the huge amount of videos showing real life handgun shootings. It was educational. What struck me was how few of the people shot actually acted like they had been shot. Many of them, even ones that had been fatally shot, were capable of quite a bit of physical activity right after being shot. When the adrenaline is flowing it seems people don't really notice that they have been shot unless they are hit in a vital area such as the heart, brain or spinal cord. So shot placement would seem to be very important. The problem is that these situations do not allow for accurate shooting. Things happen very fast with everyone moving in different directions, if they are close enough they are grabbing at you and the gun, etc. Very chaotic. Good luck with the shot placement.

None of these videos go into any detail as to type of gun or caliber, etc. You can make a general guess based on the relative size of the gun, most are compact, etc. But you really don't know if they are a 22 or 45. But I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

One thing that really stands out is that as soon as the firing begins everybody starts running the other direction. Nobody is wondering about the caliber of the gun - they just want to get away from it, period. It seems like this flight response even supercedes the awareness of having been shot. That comes afterwards when the shock sets in from blood loss, etc. Yes, it will come faster with a 45 than a 22 but if they are going to run from any gun, does it matter?

So, from the FBI's standpoint, sure they want a round that will be effective in stopping a BG given the logistics involved with a shootout and the fact that that is their job. They obviously have a professional stake in what works best and gets the job done. The manufacturers also have a stake in what works the best in the various tests.

But from a regular civilian standpoint, just having a gun that you can draw and start banging away at an assailant with is the main thing to be concerned about from watching these videos. Hopefully you can hit them before they hit you if they too are armed so it does help to practice. But maybe the ballistics are too hyped up if people are going to scatter when any gun is fired at them anyways. I would think training with what you can shoot best would trump sheer knock-down power.

One other thing - in almost every video, the person defending themselves is the one shooting first. So maybe....??? But you never know, right?
 
basically if you take in ALL 9 testing standards, everyone should be walking around with a Winchester 94 in 44 magnum loaded with 300 grain hard cast semi wadcutters.

but yet, just how many of your favorite 115 grain jhp bullets actually pass the 20 guage steel?

im not looking over the "issues" of using a percussion revolver indoors, or the reliability of them. Theres a very good forensic study on percussion revovlers that shows from 5 autopsies that all involved head wounds were 100 percent fatal.
great great grandpas percussion pistol wouldnt be the first choice of armed defense, but its better then getting murdered because you tried a fist fight.

sure a 12 guage is better at things then teh judge is when you consider buckshot, the issue is that every gun magazine ive seen in the last two years advocated the use of low recoil buckshot loads. and the low recoil buckshot loads actually are going to give you the same amount of energy per pellet, and the same useful range. its just that 9 pellets in a 4 inch circle per discharge does beat out 3 or 4 pellets at a single discharge.

heres the question, i havent been able to use a judge but they have beautiful handling in the gunstore.
 
Hey BlueTrain,

You're right...y'know, I just said that. My brain isn't on track today. He's a "person who does autopsies", not a mortician. But that whole post had a lot of interesting information, eh?

An aside question...are you a jazz buff into John Coltrane? [One of his early great albums was called "Blue Trane"]
 
I was wondering when someone would bring this up. The "Blue Train" comes from "Blue Train Rover," an advertising slogan from the old Rover Car company in Great Britain. The "Blue Train" was a train that went to the South of France and at the time, it was something of a stunt to try to drive the distance faster than the train. Someone did in a Rover sedan and they capitalized on the achievement.

Remember when trains had names? There was the Orange Blossom Special, the Wabash Cannonball, and down around where I'm from, the Powhatan Arrow.

Not to change the subject or anything, but Chic Gaylord's old book from the 1950s is about the only popular book on the subject of handguns and gunfighting that actually had illustrations of gunshot wounds in dead men. They didn't look a lot different from one another but you really shouldn't draw too much of a conclusion just from that. I keep remembering the line from "Shooting to Live" where the author said the more he learned, the less sure he was about anything.
 
I assisted another officer working a boyfriend/girlfriend shooting where the girlfriend shot the guy one time with a .25 auto (Saturday Night Special). The emergency medical team was already there by the time I arrived and had the victim sitting up on the stretcher and my first impression was that he looked sick, not shot.

As they laid him back on the stretcher I could see one tiny hole about as big around as a pencil eraser nearly dead-center in his solar plexus just below his ribs...................and absolutely no blood flow from the wound. This was my first shooting incident and I was expecting to see lots of blood like in the movies but that small round apparently made such a tiny hole that his abdomen was able to close back over it so there was no blood......no external blood. As I recall....(it was over 30 years ago) the bullet had traveled inside enough to clip some major artery near his spine and he was bleeding profusely internally. End result was he died before they could get him stabilized and into surgery.

I gained a new respect for small caliber bullets right then. I feel that if he had been hopped-up on drugs or adrenalin (or both) that this one shot would probably not have stopped him right away....but it certainly killed him even though medical personnel were there within 10 minutes.

A few years before I joined the department we had an off-duty officer shot in the forearm with a .25 caliber when he just came across two women blazing away at each other with small caliber pistols in a liquor store parking lot. He decided to disarm one of two women by grabbing her weapon when it fired and he was shot. He told me that he knew her gun had fired but in the excitement of the moment never even knew he was shot until he saw the blood.

Both are good examples of 'shot placement' being important.
 
The needs for an LEO can vary greatly from the needs of a civilian with a CCW. The two main differences are barrier penetration and the need for deep penetration due to shot angle or barrier. The FBI test does a very good job of comparing ammunition side by side to see how it performs defeating barriers. An LEO has a far larger chance of running into a situation where he/she will have to shoot through a barrier or will be taking a shot from an angle at a threat. These are not circumstances that statistically show up often in a self defense situation. My point is to not discount a caliber or load because it does not pass the FBI test, rather look at loads that work and have been proven to work in the real world. While the Federal 9BPLE 115gr. +P+ load with its conventional bullet is probably not going to be the first choice for an LEO, it has still dropped hundreds of bad guys in their tracks. Obviously some common sense needs to be taken into account. My first choice would not be something in 25acp or 22lr but the fact is bringing a gun to a gun fight is the first requirement. Carry what you feel comfortable with through your own experiences and through real world experiences. Tactics and training will always be more important then what caliber or load you carry.
 
TacticalDefense1911 said:
....While the Federal 9BPLE 115gr. +P+ load with its conventional bullet is probably not going to be the first choice for an LEO, it has still dropped hundreds of bad guys in their tracks....
How do you know that it's "...dropped hundreds of bad guys in their tracks..."? Do you know how many it hasn't?

TacticalDefense1911 said:
...My first choice would not be something in 25acp or 22lr...
However, the discussion is about what to choose and on what bases -- not about making do with what's available.

Mello2u has done an excellent job in post 10 of outlining the bases for making the choice.
 
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