Old Rem 700 trigger problem .

The Walker trigger, until a few days ago I didn't understand how it worked. What I thought was- the trigger pivoted on a pin, the area above the trigger rested on (under) the sear. When you pulled the trigger back the top area moved forward, off the sear that could then drop down, releasing the firing pin.
In order to obtain a patent the function needed to be unique so a cover was put over the top of the trigger. It's called a connector and it is free floating and held in place by the trigger pull spring pushing it against the trigger. If the gun is on safe you can normally pull the trigger and it moves the top forward away from the sear but the safety is holding the firing pin so nothing happens. When you let go of the trigger the trigger pull spring pushes the connector and trigger back under the sear. All is good. BUT if dirt gets between the connector and trigger or the safety wasn't pushed all the way, etc- it is possible if you pull the trigger while the safety is on for the trigger to go back but the edge of the sear catches on the connector. Nothing is holding the sear but the safety and as soon as you release the safety the gun fires. The instructions on my Remington call for cleaning the trigger on a regular basis and advising that excess oil, etc can render the gun extremely dangerous.
As I understand it, you can epoxy glue the connector to the trigger and there is no problem but you then need a gunsmith to true up the angles of engagement.
I don't know of any gunsmiths that do such work but would be interested to find one.
Walker, when he designed the safety wanted a trigger lock- so folks couldn't be pulling the trigger while the gun was on safety.
WHAT TO DO? Since 5 million have been sold. You really can't say it is a HUGE safety issue. Some basic rules apply:
1: Don't play with/test the trigger while the safety is on.
2. Keep the trigger manitained- cleaned.
3. Don't over rely on the safety, keep the chamber empty until in a tree stand. etc.
4. The trigger is not designed to operate with a pull under 3 pounds. From what I've read 3 1/2 lb is okay.
It helps a lot just to understand how the trigger functions.
I may be wrong but I think a Timney trigger is basically the Walker where there is no connector and the parts are better polished/fitted.
 
My first deer rifle was a .308 Rem Model 600. The 600 has the same trigger (essentially) that the 700 does, and as a teenager, I tinkered with it extensively.

You can easily adjust the trigger so the rifle is unsafe. Also, once moved, the adjustment screws can move "on their own", so some kind of threadlocker is a really good idea.

Dirt, thick oil (either from age, or extreme cold) can cause the mechanism to "stick". Simple proper PM and the right (or no) lube and the problem never seems to happen.

BUT, Remington did do a recall on the 600 series rifles, many years before the "issues" with the 700 trigger ever came to light.

My opinion, cared for properly and properly adjusted (and maintained in proper adjustment) you won't see the problem.

HOWEVER, if it bothers you, replacement triggers are easy to come by, only takes money and a few minutes work.

OR, you can just keep the mechanism clean, and as an extra added precaution, have a little metal work done on the safety.

There is a "leg" on the safety that locks the bolt shut when the safety is "on". Remove this, and you can open the bolt and unload the gun with the safety on. SO, if it does stick (fires when the safety is moved to "off"), if you have unloaded it, there is no safety problem.

I understand this mod is being done by Remington to the guns they get for repair, and new ones.
 
I always check 700 triggers on my rifles that haven't been used for a while... and others that come in for work.

A simple test to determine whether a Rem 700 trigger is operating properly is to open the bolt (on an unloaded rifle), then press and release the trigger to see if it freely and strongly returns to it's forward position. A weak return that isn't consistent to it's forward position may be a problem trigger.

Press and release it several times to see if it gets easier to pull or releases more easily with use. If the return is positive each time, the trigger is operating normally. If the return is less than a pound, doesn't have spring tension all the way forward, and/or is very short, the trigger may need cleaning and/or adjustment.

Benchrest guys recommend cleaning trigger mechanisms with lighter fluid, since it cleans well and provides a bit of lubrication. (Don't smoke or have any flames nearby.)
 
He bought the new trigger and I'll be helping him put it in soon .I have not had a chance to look at it yet . I'll update when that happens
 
Hey just installed the new trigger . It's a timney 510 and WOW very cool . I have it set at 2-1/4lbs . It's nice and crisp with no creep . It past all the function test including banging the butt stock on the ground with it cocked . Next test will be at the range .

The old trigger was SO dirty it's not even funny . That had to be the problem .

My new SR45 gets out of jail on Friday so I'll be going to the range Friday for sure . We'll bring the 700 and see how she does .

Anything you guys want to add or make sure I've done or will do is welcome

Thanks Metal
 
The old trigger was SO dirty it's not even funny . That had to be the problem .
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And there you go. I believe that the Rem trigger got a bad rap. Unlike the triggers derived from military bolt guns (intended to keep working even if full of mud, etc) the Remington trigger assembly needs some attention (cleaning) once in a while, to ensure it stays working properly.

The fact that large numbers of owners don't know this, and that the rifles can often go years or even decades of normal use without any issues from not cleaning the trigger only makes it seem worse when it does have a problem.

Rightly or wrongly, the fact that you actually have to care for it from time to time to ensure it works properly has been deem a design flaw. Or so it seems to me.
 
Glad ya'll liked the Timney. I've got several rifles that have them and have zero complaints about them. Enjoy your range trip.
 
A couple of things to talk about. The Remington Manual clearly states you need to keep the trigger clean. The trigger is pretty exposed so cleaning is a must and you need to clean without remaining residue- that's why I ask about the brake cleaner because brake cleaner is not supposed to leave a residue. Remington says a trigger with too much oil left can gum up the works and be dangerous (fire accidentally as I interprete that).
1. Of those of you that clean the trigger area- how do you do it?
2. The safety. When the safety is engaged it lifts the sear quite a bit ABOVE the trigger so if you pull the trigger with the safety on the sear is so high as to not catch on that free floating connector that is between trigger and sear when you let go of the trigger and it returns back under the sear. So make sure the safety is turned all the way on. The later models also allow you to take a round out of the chamber with the safety on. Any earlier model where you have to take the safety off to unload should be changed IMHO.
3. One of the sites on the net speaks of a guy that when to Africa, the weather was very hot and when he chambered a round the gun fired and he figured the change in temperature was the cause. If so- that doesn't have (I think) anything to do with the Walker trigger's connector. I think it might have with any trigger where sear engagement was reduced. SO....
What do some of you think about testing the rifle when in a new location. Say you go to Africa. While in camp, slam the bolt (unloaded) several times to insure the trigger is holding.
 
There are multiple problems with the Remington/Walker trigger.

It is true that many problems are caused by a dirty trigger mechanism, but that is also a design problem. It is impossible to properly inspect and clean a Remington trigger and it takes far less dirt to foul one than any other design.

The trigger connector is an un needed part that just makes the trigger more complex than necessary. There have been multiple examples of brand new guns firing with no trigger pull because the trigger connector failed. The problem was detected 60 years ago and is far more common than a lot want to admit.

There are lots of examples of folks who had no business working on triggers and making them dangerous. This is true of any gun, but it seems that the problem is far more common with Remingtons.

The simple truth is that for whatever reason Remington triggers fail at a far greater rate than any other design.
 
I have a Remington 40X, their Rangemaster rifle, .308Win. I've had this rifle since 1972, used to shoot it in High Power Competition. I do not recall having any problems with the original trigger, which along the road was changed out, replaced with a Canjar trigger. Never had a problem with that one either. The 40X was an extremely accurate rifle.

Improper trigger "adjustment" can and has caused problems in more than one rifle, pistols too.
 
Why would Remington stay with a trigger design if it were faulty?
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It's not . I think jmr40 hit it right on the head .

It is impossible to properly inspect and clean a Remington trigger and it takes far less dirt to foul one than any other design.
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There are many MANY things in life that needs to be kept very clean and needs constant maintenance to keep it working right or it will fail . The trigger in my firearm should not be one of those things IMO. I'm no gunsmith I don't want to have to make sure it's perfect or it will fire when I'm not looking .

Like I said before , If it's going to fail it should not fire at all . This is a life and death thing not a oh to bad just stripped another bolt thing .

FWIW the trigger as far as I could tell had not been worked on . All the epoxy was still covering all the screws and holes . I took pictures I'm just having a hard time uploading them since Imageshack changed .
 
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Flash hole- it had to do with obtaining a patent. The design was already in existence with the top of the trigger against the sear (Like the Timney) so Remington re-designed with the connector which they claimed had some type of benefit. Walker- the guy that designed the trigger wanted the safety to also lock the trigger but even then the connector was un-necessary- purely a way to have a patent for the trigger. I think a patent is good for 17 years plus another 17 (34) so why Remington didn't immediately change things after the 34 years- I don't know.
So...I have a Remington I want to improve. Pillar bed, etc. I think I'll leave a new trigger for last, pillar bed, work up the best reloads, set the Remington trigger to 3 1/2 and see how everything is working and if the gun is accurate, then buy the Timney for safety and an even better trigger.
And...let's not have a panic attack on this one. As has been said, there are 5 million sold. There appears to be a design flaw that shouldn't be an issue if one doesn't overly rely on the safety.
On a Timney- are there similar issues- that is- if you set at 2 1/4 pounds and do all the tests- will the trigger normally hold or will it discharge and require more sear engagement, etc?
 
A design flaw is when, assembled run as designed, the mechanism fails to operate properly, or damages itself during operation.

Something that isn't what you think it ought to be isn't a design flaw, its an opinion.

There are lots of things I consider less than optimal, or even downright stupid. And I am often at a lack when it comes to understanding why the designers did it that way. But the fact that it IS done that way (no matter what "it" is) means they intended to do it that way. That's not a flaw.


The curmudgeon in me is getting fed up with the common usage of "design flaw".

Things that work are not "flawed" because someone figured out how to do it better.
 
Timney trigger

In my youth when my eyesight was good I was able to rework three or four Rem 700's triggers. The last one I really goofed and distroyed the factory trigger. I bought a Timney trigger which solved my problem. I love the Rem 700's.

Lemmon from Rural South Carolina..... sitting at home nice and warm while outside has Sleet and frozen rain tonight..... watching the Olympics....
 
Well if I am wrong then please correct me but as I understand it, in order to obtain a patent, Remington had to come up with a design of their own so they added the free floating connector. I am getting this information from several different websites. There is no purpose to this connector. To eliminate the problem you can epoxy glue the connector to the trigger- then it cannot catch on the sear or get dirt accumulated between connector and trigger. The only problem with the epoxy glue method is a competent gunsmith needs to check all the angles and by the time you do all that- for the same cost you can put in a Timney that is better polished and designed to operate at lower trigger pull. As I understand it, even when the conector is epoxy glued- you still can't drop the trigger pull below 3 lbs.
The connector getting snagged on the sear- that's a problem where someone is pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber- on safety and when the safety is turned off the gun immediately fires. That's not the only issue, if the area is dirty and dirt gets between the conector and trigger- it moves the conector forward- that's when the gun fires immediately as you chamber a round and close the bolt. These are not manufacturing flaws. To me a manufacturing flaw is a good design but the tooling was poor- rounded sear engagements, etc. A design flaw is a flaw that can occur because of the design even when the manufacturing of the parts is perfect.
As I said, I'm not going to have a nervous breakdown on this issue. You need to simply be aware of the problem and inspect the trigger area and keep it clean and free of excess oil (The manual I got with the rifle clearly states this) that could attract dirt/grit and you need to be aware that the muzzle should always be pointed in a safe direction.
On the safety, The safety locks the firing pin so there isn't a problem with the safety- per say- its an issue of sear engagement that can change due to the free floating connector.
But, that's how I understand it- if I am wrong- help me out on this one. And, as I said, with 5 million sold and just a handful of mishaps- not a big issue- just something to be aware of.
 
The following might well be off-point, my apologies but I always thought that the factory trigger that Winchester used on their Model 70 rifles from their onset til quite recently, was design magic.

Granted, they might need a little work, knocking off burrs, polishing metal, not removing much and not changing angles, but they might be set/worked on once, and then forgotten.

I had Model 70 Target Rifles, where the trigger was smoothed out and set one time. I had more than one of them so treated, where the rifle had been re-barreled multiple times, the trigger adjusted just once.

As I recall, the TOTAL number of parts involved, including a large headed pin that attached the trigger to the action did not exceed 8. That factory trigger was an example of first rate design, in my opinion.

I had a Remington 40X Rangemaster Rifle , the accuracy of which out to 600 yards left nothing to be desired. I could not shoot it as handily as I shot the Model 70, I shot left handed, being left eye dominant, that was a "mechanical problem", not one of accuracy. All in all, as above mentioned, the Winchester trigger would be tough to beat, perhaps impossible to beat.
 
Metal god wrote:

Hey just installed the new trigger . .....

Anything you guys want to add or make sure I've done or will do is welcome

Thanks Metal
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ugh yes, 1 thought - Might want to keep that old Rem trigger.

Put it back in, if rifle ever has to be returned to Remington for repairs.
 
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