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OK, I HAVE HAD IT!
- Thread starter lewis
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Ringer or not, I'm glad he's still watching.
All too frequently we forget we're all on the same side. Sure there are bad LEOs, just like there are bad militia folk, and bad conservatives, and bad liberals (hmmm, maybe not a good example), and bad judges, and bad mothers.
Sometimes we need to ring the bells to help keep everybody going in the same direction.
Lewis' bell reminded us that LEOs protect us far more frequently than they don't. And they deserve our support.
But not unconditionally, and they would be the first to admit that!
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"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
All too frequently we forget we're all on the same side. Sure there are bad LEOs, just like there are bad militia folk, and bad conservatives, and bad liberals (hmmm, maybe not a good example), and bad judges, and bad mothers.
Sometimes we need to ring the bells to help keep everybody going in the same direction.
Lewis' bell reminded us that LEOs protect us far more frequently than they don't. And they deserve our support.
But not unconditionally, and they would be the first to admit that!
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"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
Jones,
First of all, I know that anything negative is what gets the press. If you read my post you will see that my references were first hand experience. I don't trust the press to tell the truth. They tell what sells. Anyone who has witnessed anything first hand and then watched the press report knows that sometimes you wonder if it is even the same story.
I agree with you that a majority are good. I would venture to say that instead of 10% bad it's probably pushing it to say that 1% are bad. I admitted that the good experiences far outnumber the bad.
However, please tell me how to tell which ones are in the bad 1% category and I'll be glad to let my guard down. I don't know how to give blatent trust to a guy that has the power to destroy somone's life because he's having a bad day or whatever.
While you're at it, how about a system to figure out which priest or day care worker is O.K. for your children. Will you give blind trust to them? You see, all these types of interactions must be delt with by not letting your guard down. Any time anyone has total power over you or your loved ones how can you give them blind trust? Especially when the negative possibilities are so well documented.
Please give me the good guy/bad guy identification machine and I'll know which cops, to trust. Until then, my responsibility is to my family. While your at it get one for the priest and day care worker, judge, IRS employee, Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, CIA agent, FBI agent,Teacher, etc.
LEO's are far from having a monopoly in this area.
If you want to give total blind trust to a stranger with that kind of power go for it. I hope you don't win the 1% bad guy lottery.
All I'm saying is, watch it.
Blind trust? I don't think so. As a group they haven't even come close to earning it.
Nothing personal, but if you are a LEO and you can't handle our right to freedom of speech then maybe you really need to take a look at that. That in itself is rather scarey, wouldn't you say? Just as we have a right to freedom of speech you do indeed have a right to not listen to what we have to say.
[This message has been edited by Ruger guy (edited February 11, 2000).]
First of all, I know that anything negative is what gets the press. If you read my post you will see that my references were first hand experience. I don't trust the press to tell the truth. They tell what sells. Anyone who has witnessed anything first hand and then watched the press report knows that sometimes you wonder if it is even the same story.
I agree with you that a majority are good. I would venture to say that instead of 10% bad it's probably pushing it to say that 1% are bad. I admitted that the good experiences far outnumber the bad.
However, please tell me how to tell which ones are in the bad 1% category and I'll be glad to let my guard down. I don't know how to give blatent trust to a guy that has the power to destroy somone's life because he's having a bad day or whatever.
While you're at it, how about a system to figure out which priest or day care worker is O.K. for your children. Will you give blind trust to them? You see, all these types of interactions must be delt with by not letting your guard down. Any time anyone has total power over you or your loved ones how can you give them blind trust? Especially when the negative possibilities are so well documented.
Please give me the good guy/bad guy identification machine and I'll know which cops, to trust. Until then, my responsibility is to my family. While your at it get one for the priest and day care worker, judge, IRS employee, Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, CIA agent, FBI agent,Teacher, etc.
LEO's are far from having a monopoly in this area.
If you want to give total blind trust to a stranger with that kind of power go for it. I hope you don't win the 1% bad guy lottery.
All I'm saying is, watch it.
Blind trust? I don't think so. As a group they haven't even come close to earning it.
Nothing personal, but if you are a LEO and you can't handle our right to freedom of speech then maybe you really need to take a look at that. That in itself is rather scarey, wouldn't you say? Just as we have a right to freedom of speech you do indeed have a right to not listen to what we have to say.
[This message has been edited by Ruger guy (edited February 11, 2000).]
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
This is a hypothetical question, I just want all concerned to think about it.
Can anyone name a group of people who CAN be trusted 100 percent of the time? I think not. Categorizing people will just get us all into trouble. In all cases, when dealing with an unfamiliar situation or person, exercise your best judgement. Be cautious.
If you go looking for the bad in people, you will probably find it. (paraphrased Abe Lincoln)
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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
Can anyone name a group of people who CAN be trusted 100 percent of the time? I think not. Categorizing people will just get us all into trouble. In all cases, when dealing with an unfamiliar situation or person, exercise your best judgement. Be cautious.
If you go looking for the bad in people, you will probably find it. (paraphrased Abe Lincoln)
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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
I think that most posts which LEOs perceive to be anti-LEO, are not really anti-LEO, but in fact anti-current-LE-system. We know full well it's not the officers on the streets (for the most part), but it's the system that allows them to crush people's constitutional rights (e.g. freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures) with impunity. Are there are a few bad apple LEOs (undoubtedly they would not be found at a high-class place like TFL) who are downright scum and lie like rugs to convict people, regardless of evidence - look at the LA cops who admitted to committing murder against a suspect, then planting a gun on him to make it look like self-defense. Yes, I am bashing THOSE types of LEOs, and will continue to as long as I live. At the same time, I will welcome and whole-heartedly thank LEOs of the type who post here, who are pro-RKBA, like Lewis (maybe someone will email this thread to him). It's really the system, and to me, that means two things: JUDGES and VOTERS. Look, we the voters elected the legislature and executive branches, so WE (except me of course) are to blame for these people. The judges in my mind who allow police abuses to continue are highly blameworthy because they know the law and have taken an oath to uphold it - the are supposed to be independent from political pressures. So it's more US who elect the people who run the system that are to blame more than the LEOS, and it's certainly more the police chiefs and captains etc. who are to blame than the rank and file because they are ultimately responsible for what happens on thier watch and in their departments. Again though, we are responsible, because WE elect the people who appoint the police chiefs (and judges for that matter), and we elect the county sherriffs directly, which is why they are usually much better than city police chiefs, because they are directly responsible to the people.
But, BTW, you've helped to raise my awareness at the BQ "bristle quotient" of the resident LEOs (and Christians with a "C" as well) - therefore I will undertake to henceforth be more tactful and open-minded and fair with respect to these two groups. As someone alluded to, generalizing is generally a bad thing to do.
Rosco P. Coltrain
Moderator
OK, to (mis)quote our favorite Hick politician, "It's the system, Stupid"
Part of the problem is that police officers get special priviledges along with their job. Police get to carry in situations where the prolitariate cannot. Police can buy restricted items like lockpicks, high capacity magazines, specialized ammo and tools, flashing lights, and other cool stuff that is "restricted". This is a big part of the problem as it atracts people into law enforcement so they can get those extra priviledges. If we cannot trust Joe Average Prolitariate to have locksmith tools, stun-rods, OC devices, knives, balistic vests, and of course firearms, then police officers should not have them either. I think we need states to pass laws under which a police officer cannot carry, own, use any device that an ordinary person could not. If it is against the law for Joe Average to carry into a church, bar, state building, it should also be against the law for a police officer to do so.
Another part of the problem is that LEO's do not recognize that they are ordinary civilians. A cop is no different than a cable installer or a Wal-mart manager. It is just a job, the person doing it is no different or better than anyone else.
Part of the problem is that police officers get special priviledges along with their job. Police get to carry in situations where the prolitariate cannot. Police can buy restricted items like lockpicks, high capacity magazines, specialized ammo and tools, flashing lights, and other cool stuff that is "restricted". This is a big part of the problem as it atracts people into law enforcement so they can get those extra priviledges. If we cannot trust Joe Average Prolitariate to have locksmith tools, stun-rods, OC devices, knives, balistic vests, and of course firearms, then police officers should not have them either. I think we need states to pass laws under which a police officer cannot carry, own, use any device that an ordinary person could not. If it is against the law for Joe Average to carry into a church, bar, state building, it should also be against the law for a police officer to do so.
Another part of the problem is that LEO's do not recognize that they are ordinary civilians. A cop is no different than a cable installer or a Wal-mart manager. It is just a job, the person doing it is no different or better than anyone else.
Lewis:
You might as well stick around. Heck, I started out in law enforcement then went into education. I found both occupations are not very well understood and are under appreciated.
You think you get hot at some of the posts. Good grief, I am a registered Democrat and voted for Clinton twice. How do you think I feel?
You might as well stick around. Heck, I started out in law enforcement then went into education. I found both occupations are not very well understood and are under appreciated.
You think you get hot at some of the posts. Good grief, I am a registered Democrat and voted for Clinton twice. How do you think I feel?
Extreme Machine
Inactive
WOW!!! Is he pissed or what! I myself like our sheriff dept. (Riverside Ca.) I go dirtbike riding with a deputy and his family, I fly by deputies goin' 10-20m
Extreme Machine
Inactive
miles an hour and they don't care(hit the clicker to soon) Anyway, Lewis don't leave, you guy's are cool, forget those idiots.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, please tell me how to tell which ones are in the bad 1% category and I'll be glad to let my guard down. I
don't know how to give blatent trust to a guy that has the power to destroy somone's life because he's having a
bad day or whatever.
[/quote]
It goes both ways. Show me which of the public is the 1% who will try to kill me.
Using your logic, don't get upset at LEO's for not trusting you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please give me the good guy/bad guy identification machine and I'll know which cops, to trust.[/quote]
Yes, please do. But let's substitute 'citizens' for 'cops' in that last part.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why? Cops don't wear good and bad labels. In the interest of myself and my family I have to assume the worse
case scenerio. It's the only safe assumption. How can I possibly do otherwise? To do so would be the utmost in
irresponibility to myself and my family.
[/quote]
This is fun! Let's swap 'citizens' for 'cops' again.
I could go on, but I think you've made my point for me.
LawDog
don't know how to give blatent trust to a guy that has the power to destroy somone's life because he's having a
bad day or whatever.
[/quote]
It goes both ways. Show me which of the public is the 1% who will try to kill me.
Using your logic, don't get upset at LEO's for not trusting you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please give me the good guy/bad guy identification machine and I'll know which cops, to trust.[/quote]
Yes, please do. But let's substitute 'citizens' for 'cops' in that last part.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why? Cops don't wear good and bad labels. In the interest of myself and my family I have to assume the worse
case scenerio. It's the only safe assumption. How can I possibly do otherwise? To do so would be the utmost in
irresponibility to myself and my family.
[/quote]
This is fun! Let's swap 'citizens' for 'cops' again.
I could go on, but I think you've made my point for me.
LawDog
Lewis,
If your listening, I think you should at least give some of us a chance to apologize.
If it's something I've said, or written, I apoligize for any stinging words, or phrases. But, not for my opinion.
It's been offered that a lot of the upset directed to LEO's is accountable because of stupid laws, and improper procedures imposed by the lawmaking sector of our society. To that I say, "hear, hear"! I couldn't agree more with that.
Another has said that most likely we have the instigator, or un-believer in our midst. I too, believe that to be the case. And I also believe that they've succeded in accomplishing part of their goal, separating a group of people, who share a common goal. A goal they despise, something they Loathe. And by your resigning from the ranks, you've allowed them the victory. A sad moment...
Again, if it's someting I've said, I apologize.
Best Regards,
Don
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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
If your listening, I think you should at least give some of us a chance to apologize.
If it's something I've said, or written, I apoligize for any stinging words, or phrases. But, not for my opinion.
It's been offered that a lot of the upset directed to LEO's is accountable because of stupid laws, and improper procedures imposed by the lawmaking sector of our society. To that I say, "hear, hear"! I couldn't agree more with that.
Another has said that most likely we have the instigator, or un-believer in our midst. I too, believe that to be the case. And I also believe that they've succeded in accomplishing part of their goal, separating a group of people, who share a common goal. A goal they despise, something they Loathe. And by your resigning from the ranks, you've allowed them the victory. A sad moment...
Again, if it's someting I've said, I apologize.
Best Regards,
Don
------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
Steve in PA
New member
Lewis: After reading a totally idiotic posting from Roscoe.....I will be joining you sir.
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Steve
LPD
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Steve
LPD
Needanak, as you have chosen not to post your e-mail address where I could contact you in private, I will post here.
Thank you for verifying your predjudice. I had supposed you to be a bigot. It is nice to have ones supposition validated in such a positive manner.
You state, "Good riddance." How blithely you say that! Ah! It must be nice to know so much that you are able to say, "Good riddance" to what they might have taught you.
It must be truly a blessing to have so many friends that you feel the need to say "Good riddance" to two people who might have been your friends.
I think of the experiences, the stories, nay, the very insight that Lewis and Steve from PA might relate...and I remember a wise man saying, "Only a poltroon gives up the opportunity to learn more. And only a cretin believes he knows it all."
And that right there should be an education.
LawDog
Thank you for verifying your predjudice. I had supposed you to be a bigot. It is nice to have ones supposition validated in such a positive manner.
You state, "Good riddance." How blithely you say that! Ah! It must be nice to know so much that you are able to say, "Good riddance" to what they might have taught you.
It must be truly a blessing to have so many friends that you feel the need to say "Good riddance" to two people who might have been your friends.
I think of the experiences, the stories, nay, the very insight that Lewis and Steve from PA might relate...and I remember a wise man saying, "Only a poltroon gives up the opportunity to learn more. And only a cretin believes he knows it all."
And that right there should be an education.
LawDog
To Lewis et al
I am surprised that you judge all the TFL members as a group when we are all separate individuals. Some people, whether LEO's or civilians, are fair and just minded others aren't. How about accepting the good and throwing out the bad rather than rejecting the decent folks. There are those who would defend LEO's with their life ( or any human being in need) and I feel it is wrong to turn your back on them. It is giving more power to the non-decent people when you allow them to influence your actions.
Rosco, with all due respect there is a need to restrict certain items. You would not want some low life to buy a lock pick and break into your home and there are many such people out there. It is true that some cops abuse their power but that is a law of human behavior that will never change. When you allow more people restricted items there will be more abuse of those items against to and me and LEO's. Maybe you should re-read what you wrote.
I am surprised that you judge all the TFL members as a group when we are all separate individuals. Some people, whether LEO's or civilians, are fair and just minded others aren't. How about accepting the good and throwing out the bad rather than rejecting the decent folks. There are those who would defend LEO's with their life ( or any human being in need) and I feel it is wrong to turn your back on them. It is giving more power to the non-decent people when you allow them to influence your actions.
Rosco, with all due respect there is a need to restrict certain items. You would not want some low life to buy a lock pick and break into your home and there are many such people out there. It is true that some cops abuse their power but that is a law of human behavior that will never change. When you allow more people restricted items there will be more abuse of those items against to and me and LEO's. Maybe you should re-read what you wrote.
Personally, I feel that someone who generalizes all 4,404 TFL members as "Cop Bashers" isn't much different that the small percentage of folks out there who generalize all law enforcement officers as "Jack-Booted Thugs."
There are idiots out there, both LEO and non-LEO. Deal with it. Personally, I don't let Internet flame wars, trolls, and cop-bashing get to me. I choose to excercise the option of not reading the posts. I've seen more good people leave places like AR15.com, TFL, and GlockTalk due to a few words of a few idiots.
This the the World-Wide-Web, for criminy-sakes. There are millions of people who have access to express their thoughts in every way imaginable. That's just one of the small nuisances that we have to learn to put up with.
The Law Enforcement profession is a world unto itself. Like any society, it has its rational, and its morons.
Instead of getting your panties in a wad and stomping off, why don't you stick around and help educate rather than alienate. There are a helluva lot of people out there that have no contact with Police Officers, other than the crap they see on TV, the Internet, or in newpapers. A lot of these are the people who think that people become LEOs so they can play with neat little sirens, carry guns and handcuffs, and wear those nifty little badges. They just can't muster up the daggum common sense to realize that cops are people too.
There are a lot of us who are LEOs or are friends of LEOs. Stick around and help educate the uninformed.
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Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page
[This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited February 12, 2000).]
There are idiots out there, both LEO and non-LEO. Deal with it. Personally, I don't let Internet flame wars, trolls, and cop-bashing get to me. I choose to excercise the option of not reading the posts. I've seen more good people leave places like AR15.com, TFL, and GlockTalk due to a few words of a few idiots.
This the the World-Wide-Web, for criminy-sakes. There are millions of people who have access to express their thoughts in every way imaginable. That's just one of the small nuisances that we have to learn to put up with.
The Law Enforcement profession is a world unto itself. Like any society, it has its rational, and its morons.
Instead of getting your panties in a wad and stomping off, why don't you stick around and help educate rather than alienate. There are a helluva lot of people out there that have no contact with Police Officers, other than the crap they see on TV, the Internet, or in newpapers. A lot of these are the people who think that people become LEOs so they can play with neat little sirens, carry guns and handcuffs, and wear those nifty little badges. They just can't muster up the daggum common sense to realize that cops are people too.
There are a lot of us who are LEOs or are friends of LEOs. Stick around and help educate the uninformed.
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Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page
[This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited February 12, 2000).]
I think that the PR problem comes from the perception that cops can sometimes and in some places get away with wrongful killings/murder, theft (asset seizure) and other abuses for which a non LEO or a non fed would get imprisoned or executed. THAT perception is the wedge.
That said, I support my local beat cops. I also support some administrators. However, certain other police administrators locally bring to mind the worse of their Soviet counterparts. Trouble is, short of moving, I can do very little about depending on their (outright evil) policies.
BTW, do stick around. And if you don't like something I or others say about LEOs, wait a bit and the sheer number of different opinions will drown away the noise. Don't go away angry because we are not trying to get on your nerves. Any anger you may feel is due to mis-communication.
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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)
http://dd-b.net/RKBA
[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited February 12, 2000).]
That said, I support my local beat cops. I also support some administrators. However, certain other police administrators locally bring to mind the worse of their Soviet counterparts. Trouble is, short of moving, I can do very little about depending on their (outright evil) policies.
BTW, do stick around. And if you don't like something I or others say about LEOs, wait a bit and the sheer number of different opinions will drown away the noise. Don't go away angry because we are not trying to get on your nerves. Any anger you may feel is due to mis-communication.
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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)
http://dd-b.net/RKBA
[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited February 12, 2000).]
lawdog,
kiss my #ss! you don't know one d#mn thing about me.
if steve wants to tuck his tail and run after what roscoe posted, then good riddance. didn't say anything about lewis.
ps
i'm glad your doing fine after your accident. and just because i don't kiss every leo's #ss and lick everything up that le does, doesn't meant i wouldn't be behind you on many issues.
kiss my #ss! you don't know one d#mn thing about me.
if steve wants to tuck his tail and run after what roscoe posted, then good riddance. didn't say anything about lewis.
ps
i'm glad your doing fine after your accident. and just because i don't kiss every leo's #ss and lick everything up that le does, doesn't meant i wouldn't be behind you on many issues.
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