Well, you all have finally done it. Ever since I discovered the wonderful world of internet forums, I have worked to reply to posts involving law enforcement and to foster a good relationship between LEO and non LEO members of this board. No matter what we police do, it is never enough. On the street or here. I am strongly progun, pro ccw, pro hicap, etc. etc. For the record, I will not enforce any uncostitutional law whether it is related to firearms or anyting else. Over the past few weeks you folks have taken every oppurtunity to bash police officers at every turn. You are the ones fostering US vs. THEM. I for one have had enough. If you all want to piss off all the pro gun cops who are here then fine, go ahead. Make yourselves look like the a##holes that the liberal press wants all gun owners to look like. I don't care anymore, because this is my last post here at TFL and I will not even lurk. I have to much good stuff going on in my life to come here and get pissed off night after night. don't bother to ask me to stay, because I won't see it.
OK, I HAVE HAD IT!
- Thread starter lewis
- Start date
- Status
Chill my brother! I agree with you whole heartedly. LEOs' like you are in the minority. We need people like you for your input. Maybe its because I work in corrections and have a thick skin but the discourse (at least what I have read) is not directed at the individual officer but at the system in general. When people have a unfavorable experience they tend to generalize that experience and transfer it. I.E. the principle of transference. People have a right to speak thier mind (1st ammend). When an individual becomes offended/upset/pissed off on the basis of a few posts and decides to exclude thenselves they fall into the self-fufilling prophcey of US v. THEM. Just remember that when they need us we come. Either to pick up the pieces or to prevent the whole from becomming pieces. Just like I am doing right now. Making sure they can sleep sound and that every family dosen't have to post an armed sentry at their front and back doors. I am making sure 200 criminals are staying locked up and secure for all of us. And I don't need anyone's thanks. Go in peace my brother. 
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"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk.
That will teach you to keep your mouth shut"
E. Hemmingway
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"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk.
That will teach you to keep your mouth shut"
E. Hemmingway
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Our Administrator Rob is also a LEO... Currently working patrol and probably feels the same as you quite often.
lewis - your free to leave if you like.
But I suggest that your efforts are not waisted. If you put the seed into some ones mind "Cops are not all bad." then in fact you have won. Venting out in frustration and storming off only makes those you could have turned say "See - thats what I thought."
Hate to see a good man turn quiter.
That made me feel sad...
lewis - your free to leave if you like.
But I suggest that your efforts are not waisted. If you put the seed into some ones mind "Cops are not all bad." then in fact you have won. Venting out in frustration and storming off only makes those you could have turned say "See - thats what I thought."
Hate to see a good man turn quiter.
That made me feel sad...
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Lewis-
We walk a fine line around here. We do not allow gratuitous cop bashing or threads regarding violence against LEO's. That in itself gets us a reputation for being too uptight.
But, all in all, our members are quite LEO supportive. Yes we dislike abuses of authority on all levels, but that doesn't mean we're anti-LEO. Unfortunately, the good things done by any group never receive the notoriety of the relatively few abuses. Stick around. You make a difference.
Rich Lucibella
We walk a fine line around here. We do not allow gratuitous cop bashing or threads regarding violence against LEO's. That in itself gets us a reputation for being too uptight.
But, all in all, our members are quite LEO supportive. Yes we dislike abuses of authority on all levels, but that doesn't mean we're anti-LEO. Unfortunately, the good things done by any group never receive the notoriety of the relatively few abuses. Stick around. You make a difference.
Rich Lucibella
Interesting. I was thinking along the same lines as Lewis. I read some anti LEO threads on this board that are obviously agenda driven. I just read one on the legal board that particularly annoyed me. I won`t even bother to reply as the poster is obviously an Al Sharpton clone. Not everyone here is a legitimate gun owner or RKBA advocate. It`s the same all over the net. A backshooter needs the cloak of annonymity. Boards like this are easy to find and post on. Hate cops? Who cares? Your dreary little life is so much more fulfilled. Critical of us? That`s your right but remember we have rights too. One of them is to debate you on your point of view. Hell, sometimes we even agree with you. Nobody has to love us, we have our faults. Hang out Lewis. There`ll always be good people around even if they only come out when they see the cops.
The good thing about the net is some people are leery of talking face to face to the cops about their problems. They believe their problems are important and this forum can produce meaningful dialogue and better understanding.
The good thing about the net is some people are leery of talking face to face to the cops about their problems. They believe their problems are important and this forum can produce meaningful dialogue and better understanding.
'Hope he changes his mind.
One of the things I have had to adjust to here on TFL is listening to (reading through) posts that just get me flaming from the britches up.
'Last time I noticed there are over 4,000 registered members here. Statistically, that's going to be a lot of ignorance, along with some reason, wisdom and experience. And a LOT of lurkers.
So, I have decided to stay here because of members like Gunslinger, LawDog, Mal, Labgrade, Gorthaur, Joey, Coinneach, Rob, Paul, Dennis, DC, Rich, George, Bill and others whose names don't come to mind right now. Oh, and Lewis too.
I was really pleasantly surprised to find so many LEO's here at TFL. Some of the posts here that seem anti-LEO are, I think, posted just to get a reaction or maybe just aren't well thought out before hitting the "Post Reply" button. No excuses.
Let this be a first. I have NEVER had a bad experience with a law enforcement officer. Never.
If I have a gripe with law enforcement today, it isn't with the way individual officers conduct themselves. It's the administration and leadership at the agency and department level. Witness the militarization of civilian authority ... but that is another thread. Not for here.
So, I hope the other LEO's here don't get as frustrated as Lewis. I hope he does lurk around for a while and decides that this is a place to make change happen. I think it is.
BTW, for all the LEO's out there ... Thank you for your service to your community and our country.
Gunslinger, LawDog, Lewis, 12-34hom, Rob? You listenin'?
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Sensop
"Get your mind right and the body will follow." - Shino Takazawa, sinsei, hachi dan, Keishinkan do.
Sensop's Corner
[This message has been edited by sensop (edited February 11, 2000).]
One of the things I have had to adjust to here on TFL is listening to (reading through) posts that just get me flaming from the britches up.
'Last time I noticed there are over 4,000 registered members here. Statistically, that's going to be a lot of ignorance, along with some reason, wisdom and experience. And a LOT of lurkers.
So, I have decided to stay here because of members like Gunslinger, LawDog, Mal, Labgrade, Gorthaur, Joey, Coinneach, Rob, Paul, Dennis, DC, Rich, George, Bill and others whose names don't come to mind right now. Oh, and Lewis too.
I was really pleasantly surprised to find so many LEO's here at TFL. Some of the posts here that seem anti-LEO are, I think, posted just to get a reaction or maybe just aren't well thought out before hitting the "Post Reply" button. No excuses.
Let this be a first. I have NEVER had a bad experience with a law enforcement officer. Never.
If I have a gripe with law enforcement today, it isn't with the way individual officers conduct themselves. It's the administration and leadership at the agency and department level. Witness the militarization of civilian authority ... but that is another thread. Not for here.
So, I hope the other LEO's here don't get as frustrated as Lewis. I hope he does lurk around for a while and decides that this is a place to make change happen. I think it is.
BTW, for all the LEO's out there ... Thank you for your service to your community and our country.
Gunslinger, LawDog, Lewis, 12-34hom, Rob? You listenin'?
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Sensop
"Get your mind right and the body will follow." - Shino Takazawa, sinsei, hachi dan, Keishinkan do.
Sensop's Corner
[This message has been edited by sensop (edited February 11, 2000).]
bestdefense357
New member
It also disturbs me to see the cop-bashers running amok. In fact, I don't usually even read those posts. While interviewing police officers for my book, I found them to be pro-gun to a man/woman. They were all very nice, helpful, and many went above and beyond to help me. While there are bad apples in every crowd, the vast majority of police officers are on our side when it comes gun issues.
Robert
Robert
Hey guys, I'm a cop, and the anti-leo stuff does piss me off sometimes, but sometimes, we deserve it.
The leo's who love the authority & power we wield cause lots of problems. It needs to be used with common sense (much like our guns, cars, tickets, etc.)
I've seen some "civilians" who have their heads up their a**es (some in these threads), but for the most part, most of the gun owners I've run across are good solid citizens and we've got more in common than not. Hell, I know a bunch of citizens I'd rather have as back-ups in a sh*tty situation than some cops!
There are good and bad in all groups, but the RKBA is paramount.
Moon
The leo's who love the authority & power we wield cause lots of problems. It needs to be used with common sense (much like our guns, cars, tickets, etc.)
I've seen some "civilians" who have their heads up their a**es (some in these threads), but for the most part, most of the gun owners I've run across are good solid citizens and we've got more in common than not. Hell, I know a bunch of citizens I'd rather have as back-ups in a sh*tty situation than some cops!
There are good and bad in all groups, but the RKBA is paramount.
Moon
Jeff Thomas
New member
It's a shame to lose a fine mind / member off of TFL. And, LEO bashing by individuals does get out of hand from time to time.
By the same token, most of what I have seen has also been regarding the system, not individual officers. Frustration with no-knocks, seizures, application of force, and manipulation of gun owners, to name a few.
It is a very small minority of TFL members who create the more egregious problems. I think the majority of our LEO members are able to let that foolishness slide off their backs. To be frank, if an LEO doesn't realize the problem is small, and the system they work with often has significant problems that others can't ignore, then I'm sorry to see them go, but their leaving is probably inevitable.
What's the alternative? Never to mention the systemic problems, or the LEO's that have done us wrong? Neither seems reasonable to me. The give and take we have on TFL is important - 'civilians' hear LEO views, and LEO's hear 'civilian' views. That's valuable discussion.
Unfortunately, we've also entered the War on Guns now, and that is also bound to increase the friction between LEO's and honest gun owners. That seems obvious to me. Are we just supposed to suck it up and keep our mouths shut?
Probably not often enough, but I think many of us have expressed appreciation for the critical service LEO's provlde. So lewis, thanks for your service. I hope you can find a board that is more comfortable for you.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 11, 2000).]
By the same token, most of what I have seen has also been regarding the system, not individual officers. Frustration with no-knocks, seizures, application of force, and manipulation of gun owners, to name a few.
It is a very small minority of TFL members who create the more egregious problems. I think the majority of our LEO members are able to let that foolishness slide off their backs. To be frank, if an LEO doesn't realize the problem is small, and the system they work with often has significant problems that others can't ignore, then I'm sorry to see them go, but their leaving is probably inevitable.
What's the alternative? Never to mention the systemic problems, or the LEO's that have done us wrong? Neither seems reasonable to me. The give and take we have on TFL is important - 'civilians' hear LEO views, and LEO's hear 'civilian' views. That's valuable discussion.
Unfortunately, we've also entered the War on Guns now, and that is also bound to increase the friction between LEO's and honest gun owners. That seems obvious to me. Are we just supposed to suck it up and keep our mouths shut?
Probably not often enough, but I think many of us have expressed appreciation for the critical service LEO's provlde. So lewis, thanks for your service. I hope you can find a board that is more comfortable for you.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 11, 2000).]
I have to tell a story here that I think is necessary. While growing up a few of our county and city officers were really involved in the local community. One gentleman in particular made a lasting impression on me. Did he change my life? You bet. He also taught a firearms class at the local junior college. Some of my fondest memories in life was taking this class. It was also a very hard class to get as it was always over booked. Brad made a lot of difference in the community. How? By getting out talking and working with the kids.
Since that time I have never feared an LEO pulling up behind me, rather I have always been grateful that they were there. In fact I have always respected other officers because of what Brad did for me. It's not to say that I don't realize that officers are like everyone else. There are both good and bad in all groups of people. But that does not make the vast majority bad when someone has a bad experience.
The point of this, to all of you officers out there: We need your input. We need your involvement. You can and do make a difference in the attitudes of those who have had bad experiences. Please don't take the officer bashing posts here as a personal attack, but rather think of it as an opportunity to show these people that one bad apple does not spoil the whole barrel.
Thanks for all you do. There are some of us here who do appreciate the hard work you do.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
Since that time I have never feared an LEO pulling up behind me, rather I have always been grateful that they were there. In fact I have always respected other officers because of what Brad did for me. It's not to say that I don't realize that officers are like everyone else. There are both good and bad in all groups of people. But that does not make the vast majority bad when someone has a bad experience.
The point of this, to all of you officers out there: We need your input. We need your involvement. You can and do make a difference in the attitudes of those who have had bad experiences. Please don't take the officer bashing posts here as a personal attack, but rather think of it as an opportunity to show these people that one bad apple does not spoil the whole barrel.
Thanks for all you do. There are some of us here who do appreciate the hard work you do.
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Richard
The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
Yeah don't pack your bags and leave town,Too many good folks will miss out on what you may have to offer. I think it has been said, but I think the LEOs that are being bashed are the ones that have oversteped their
boundries. I have several friends that are LEOS and others that I have conversed with here I would do anything I could to support and back them up if needed.
So don't bag out yet your input could be much needed by someone in the need to know.
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Help Stamp Out Gun Ignorance.
boundries. I have several friends that are LEOS and others that I have conversed with here I would do anything I could to support and back them up if needed.
So don't bag out yet your input could be much needed by someone in the need to know.
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Help Stamp Out Gun Ignorance.
Lewis,
I hope you reconsider. I recognize your frustration to some extent, though I am not a LEO. I, as a committed Christian, am often offended at some of the Christian bashing I see here. Some to be particularly insulting spell it with a K. I don't always respond to those folks, but when I do I don't do it with the hope of changing them, but to provide a Christian point of view for many others who are not hostile to Christianity. Does it do any good? I won't ever know, but I do what I believe I should and the consequences I just accept. I use this as a parallel to the LEO's here. Those LEO bashers who don't really care what is right or wrong will never be changed, but most of us are influenced for the good by your attitude. If all the good ones leave then who will balance the ideas and attitudes of the others? We must also accept the fact that there are those LEOs who are badge heavy. They need to be challenged. None of us will ever get it perfectly right. We are always slightly to one side or the other of the line of absolute correctness. Please stay for those of us who can be objective and civil and help us to understand your point of view. I respect your decision either way. Best to you and be careful. Jerry
I hope you reconsider. I recognize your frustration to some extent, though I am not a LEO. I, as a committed Christian, am often offended at some of the Christian bashing I see here. Some to be particularly insulting spell it with a K. I don't always respond to those folks, but when I do I don't do it with the hope of changing them, but to provide a Christian point of view for many others who are not hostile to Christianity. Does it do any good? I won't ever know, but I do what I believe I should and the consequences I just accept. I use this as a parallel to the LEO's here. Those LEO bashers who don't really care what is right or wrong will never be changed, but most of us are influenced for the good by your attitude. If all the good ones leave then who will balance the ideas and attitudes of the others? We must also accept the fact that there are those LEOs who are badge heavy. They need to be challenged. None of us will ever get it perfectly right. We are always slightly to one side or the other of the line of absolute correctness. Please stay for those of us who can be objective and civil and help us to understand your point of view. I respect your decision either way. Best to you and be careful. Jerry
Lewis: Some folks will never like the police and what thet stand for no matter what we do or say, that's reality. [Cause if they fell on a pin they be blind in both eyes]. But this place is a place to LEARN = about others; the way they feel and thier ideas on what we do as police and our society as a whole. Kinda like a huge reflecting pool. I have been annoyed several times by posts here about peace officers, but those folks are entitled to share thier thoughts and views along with everyone else.
Just because you or i espouse certain idea's don't make them right or valid, and someone reading our messages may get just as pissed off as we do. So hang around, there's alot to gain by hanging around here.
Just because you or i espouse certain idea's don't make them right or valid, and someone reading our messages may get just as pissed off as we do. So hang around, there's alot to gain by hanging around here.
i respect our police forces and believe that they do an exceptional job. What worries me is how the political will of antigunners is making decisions that the LEO community will have to deal with. HCI is driving the wedge between the American gun owner and our police.
As long as the police continue to respect & honor the Constitution of the United States of America then they have my full respect and support.
dZ
As long as the police continue to respect & honor the Constitution of the United States of America then they have my full respect and support.
dZ
I don't have time for this right now but I have to quickly respond.
I have purposefully avoided this subject because it truly seems that the LEO's on this board are what I consider to be the "good guys" and there isn't really anything to be gained by talking about the bad guys to the good guys. Yeh, maybe we should place posts on here when we have a good experience but I guess it just doesn't work that way. Maybe that'd be a good topic area to start. But the truth is that in any business very few happy customers tell anybody and an unhappy customer tells everybody. That's the way it is for all of us, no matter what business we're in, so, your no different. None of us get a pat on the back. That's what the paycheck is for and like anyone else, if that's not good enough, we have to go do something else. That's harsh, but reality.
I am quite confident that I am about to piss off a lot of people here. But I have a right to post and if you want me to leave and not come back, so be it.
You want to wine about the opinion of people in your profession, so you obviously need a lesson about where that comes from and how it truly affects you. Knowing how you are percieved and why, whether justifiably or not, may save your life one day. My only intent here is positive. But you may not like what you read. The truth sometimes is painfully confronting.
Let me start out by saying that I always treat a police officer with the utmost respect whether the individual deserves it or not. I also teach every member of my family to do the same. After all, they have a gun and the power to destroy your life and your family if they choose to. And, maybe they have or will actually put their life on the line for someone elses. Odds are that during a 20 or 30 year career, they will. If they live long enough.
I have have not done any "cop bashing" other than one off handed comment in an early post about the criminals with badges. I don't have time for that and it doesn't accomplish anything. I apologize if anyone was offended by that.
I feel I have a responsibility to respond to this post so all you LEO's understand what's going on inside someones mind when your dealing with them. Reading what follows may even help save your life one day. This post is not intended as bashing. But you obviously need a clear picture of how and why you are being percieved when dealing with people today.
However, the reality of my experience is as follows.
Many LEO's appear to be level headed and well meaning. The problem is that there is no way to identify which is which.
I have personally had good and bad experiences with cops, none of which were provoked by me.
I have personally witnessed two police beatings where several officers (In one case 6 and in the other 12) nearly beat an indvidual to death. It was unprovoked as I witnessed these incidences from start to finish. I just happened to be an innocent bystander. One was because the guy had long hair and an earing and a cut off t-shirt in Tulsa, OK and the cops were screaming obsenities like fag,etc. He was jogging down the street,exersizing, as verified by some of the cops shouted statements, when the cops attacked him. Don't tell me it's a lie because I was there. I didn't know the guy. But as I heard his bones breaking, and some of the cops laughing at their entertainment, I tried to get the cops to stop it. They then turned on me and said that I could be next. I said "no problem, I didn't see a thing, told them I was leaving, and ran like hell." Looking back on it,that was a dumb thing to do because I could have easily been shot. When I tried to report the incident to superiors I was told that there was no record of such an incident and as far as they were concerned I was attempting a false report. Out of self presrvation, I did not persue it.
I will not bore you with the details of the other incident. Let it suffice to say that it was very similar with a similar outcome.
There is never any justification for such behavior. Don't try to give me a justification story. It's totally uncalled for no matter what.
I also have cops as aquaintances (I'm afraid to allow them closer.) who readily admit in confidence, while having a relaxing beer together, that they have been known to "take out their frustrations on individuals who deserve it when the cameras aren't running".
I have witnessed a yahoo cop police chase where they caused an innocent bystander to be killed. All that because some 14 year old kid stole a $1500 K-car. Some were standing around laughing. Was someones life a worthwhile price? They actually chased another kid at high speed until he crashed into our condo building, also for a stolen car. Had it caught on fire they could have potentially killed or at least fiancially destroyed several hundred lives. Again, some were standing around laughing about how the kid "splattered pretty good." It's a good thing no one was walking their dog or jogging or driving where the path of that car was. That happened about two years ago. I even ran into one of the LEO's involved at the range about two weeks ago and he laughed about the incident when I brought it up. I asked him "what if myself or a member of my family would have been on the street driving or walking down the street and gotten killed or mamed over a stolen car?" His response was "Oh well, blame the kid that stole the car." So an officer made a decision that killing or maming an innocent was O.K. with them because they didn't make the decision to steal the car and run. I said" what about radios, blocking the road, letting them go? That's what the insurance is for anyway." He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh well. Recent numbers show that more people are killed in the United States by cops cars than by cops guns.
I personally am petrified of a cop getting ahold of a member of my family when he's had a bad day or feeling his oats, or causing an accident that kills or mames a member of my family either directly or indirectly.
I've been given bogus traffic tickets that I later beat in court and actually got a repremand directed at the cop from the court for harrassment. It was that blatent. It wasn't just me either. While I was awaiting my refund the same thing happened again to the same cop. He was abusing people with the system. Anyone else would be in jail. Even the other cops laughed at him openly in the court room by the time I was done. I won but still lost, because he cost me a days work, countless worry and mental anguish, sleepless nights, nervous stomach, et.,etc.etc. He took unwarranted power over my life. Had I not been financially able to prepay the fine and court costs or had the ability and guts to challenge him he would have won by default.
I have also seen good cops in action on many occasions. These good acts are more numerous than the bad ones. In fact, too numerous to list.
The fact of the matter is that only one negative experience such as described above is enough to make you extremely apprehensive of anyone wearing a badge.
Why? Cops don't wear good and bad labels. In the interest of myself and my family I have to assume the worse case scenerio. It's the only safe assumption. How can I possibly do otherwise? To do so would be the utmost in irresponibility to myself and my family.
A cop is potentially more dangerous to anyone than any thug walking down the street. You can safely assume that the thug is bad. So you don't even think about placing an ounce of trust in him. You're taught to trust a cop, but you really can't use that as a blanket rule. They don't wear labels. You can attempt to defend yourself against a thug. No matter what a cop does .....you lose. You can not defend yourself against them. They all carry guns. Many will cover for each other, including purjury and beyond. Anything that happens will be twisted to suit the blue wall. This is well documented, so don't wine that it's only sometimes and not the majority because I have no way of knowing if I or a member of my family will draw that lottery.
A cop is an average guy who has the power to choose to destroy an individuals life. Even if you are innocent and prove it you are potentially financially ruined. Not to mention emotionally. And they all know they have that potential power. They have to, it's part of the job.
I hope this has been somehow constructive. If you can tell me how to know which LEO is good or bad when I see one on the side of the road or driving please tell me. I can't see a difference. All I can hope for is that I or a member of my family is not in his sights that day.
Most people I know are middle and upper middle class professionals of all races. They are either business owners or employed fairly high p th ladder. I don't know one who is not totally terrified of any interaction at all of any kind with a Law enforcement officer.
That's a real problem. You need to go out of your way to demonstrate to any individual you are dealing with at the moment that you are one of the good guys. But please realize how you are perceived. That may never change. Even if you feel the fears are unwarranted, they are based in the reality of either personal or third hand experiences. Some of the latter of which may admitedly be exagerated when people retell a story that they heard about. But everything that I listed here is was of my personal experience and is truthful and not exagerated. How can I feel comfortable with a LEO whom I don't know personally? Please help me here. I truly would love to know how to tell if the LEO of the moment is good or bad.
Until you have a solution, you just have to deal the perception of your profession. That's no different than a good lawyer or decent honest auto mechanic. It just goes with the territory. If you can't handle it, do what we all do when there's something about a job that we can't or aren't willing to deal with. Quit and go do something else or do everything within your power to change it. But please do something besides wine about the public's opinion of your profession. We all put up with it in one way or another. Oh yeh, and don't tell me about how you put your life on the line. We all know you do. You new that before you applied for the job. You chose to accept that. That's no different than a miner who gets buried, a machinist who gets his arm torn off in a machine, an electrician who gets electrocuted or a race car driver who gets kiiled in an accident. You are doing what you do because you choose to. You are not forced to do it. If you don't like the publics perception of your profession, change it or do something else or just put up with it.
I have purposefully avoided this subject because it truly seems that the LEO's on this board are what I consider to be the "good guys" and there isn't really anything to be gained by talking about the bad guys to the good guys. Yeh, maybe we should place posts on here when we have a good experience but I guess it just doesn't work that way. Maybe that'd be a good topic area to start. But the truth is that in any business very few happy customers tell anybody and an unhappy customer tells everybody. That's the way it is for all of us, no matter what business we're in, so, your no different. None of us get a pat on the back. That's what the paycheck is for and like anyone else, if that's not good enough, we have to go do something else. That's harsh, but reality.
I am quite confident that I am about to piss off a lot of people here. But I have a right to post and if you want me to leave and not come back, so be it.
You want to wine about the opinion of people in your profession, so you obviously need a lesson about where that comes from and how it truly affects you. Knowing how you are percieved and why, whether justifiably or not, may save your life one day. My only intent here is positive. But you may not like what you read. The truth sometimes is painfully confronting.
Let me start out by saying that I always treat a police officer with the utmost respect whether the individual deserves it or not. I also teach every member of my family to do the same. After all, they have a gun and the power to destroy your life and your family if they choose to. And, maybe they have or will actually put their life on the line for someone elses. Odds are that during a 20 or 30 year career, they will. If they live long enough.
I have have not done any "cop bashing" other than one off handed comment in an early post about the criminals with badges. I don't have time for that and it doesn't accomplish anything. I apologize if anyone was offended by that.
I feel I have a responsibility to respond to this post so all you LEO's understand what's going on inside someones mind when your dealing with them. Reading what follows may even help save your life one day. This post is not intended as bashing. But you obviously need a clear picture of how and why you are being percieved when dealing with people today.
However, the reality of my experience is as follows.
Many LEO's appear to be level headed and well meaning. The problem is that there is no way to identify which is which.
I have personally had good and bad experiences with cops, none of which were provoked by me.
I have personally witnessed two police beatings where several officers (In one case 6 and in the other 12) nearly beat an indvidual to death. It was unprovoked as I witnessed these incidences from start to finish. I just happened to be an innocent bystander. One was because the guy had long hair and an earing and a cut off t-shirt in Tulsa, OK and the cops were screaming obsenities like fag,etc. He was jogging down the street,exersizing, as verified by some of the cops shouted statements, when the cops attacked him. Don't tell me it's a lie because I was there. I didn't know the guy. But as I heard his bones breaking, and some of the cops laughing at their entertainment, I tried to get the cops to stop it. They then turned on me and said that I could be next. I said "no problem, I didn't see a thing, told them I was leaving, and ran like hell." Looking back on it,that was a dumb thing to do because I could have easily been shot. When I tried to report the incident to superiors I was told that there was no record of such an incident and as far as they were concerned I was attempting a false report. Out of self presrvation, I did not persue it.
I will not bore you with the details of the other incident. Let it suffice to say that it was very similar with a similar outcome.
There is never any justification for such behavior. Don't try to give me a justification story. It's totally uncalled for no matter what.
I also have cops as aquaintances (I'm afraid to allow them closer.) who readily admit in confidence, while having a relaxing beer together, that they have been known to "take out their frustrations on individuals who deserve it when the cameras aren't running".
I have witnessed a yahoo cop police chase where they caused an innocent bystander to be killed. All that because some 14 year old kid stole a $1500 K-car. Some were standing around laughing. Was someones life a worthwhile price? They actually chased another kid at high speed until he crashed into our condo building, also for a stolen car. Had it caught on fire they could have potentially killed or at least fiancially destroyed several hundred lives. Again, some were standing around laughing about how the kid "splattered pretty good." It's a good thing no one was walking their dog or jogging or driving where the path of that car was. That happened about two years ago. I even ran into one of the LEO's involved at the range about two weeks ago and he laughed about the incident when I brought it up. I asked him "what if myself or a member of my family would have been on the street driving or walking down the street and gotten killed or mamed over a stolen car?" His response was "Oh well, blame the kid that stole the car." So an officer made a decision that killing or maming an innocent was O.K. with them because they didn't make the decision to steal the car and run. I said" what about radios, blocking the road, letting them go? That's what the insurance is for anyway." He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh well. Recent numbers show that more people are killed in the United States by cops cars than by cops guns.
I personally am petrified of a cop getting ahold of a member of my family when he's had a bad day or feeling his oats, or causing an accident that kills or mames a member of my family either directly or indirectly.
I've been given bogus traffic tickets that I later beat in court and actually got a repremand directed at the cop from the court for harrassment. It was that blatent. It wasn't just me either. While I was awaiting my refund the same thing happened again to the same cop. He was abusing people with the system. Anyone else would be in jail. Even the other cops laughed at him openly in the court room by the time I was done. I won but still lost, because he cost me a days work, countless worry and mental anguish, sleepless nights, nervous stomach, et.,etc.etc. He took unwarranted power over my life. Had I not been financially able to prepay the fine and court costs or had the ability and guts to challenge him he would have won by default.
I have also seen good cops in action on many occasions. These good acts are more numerous than the bad ones. In fact, too numerous to list.
The fact of the matter is that only one negative experience such as described above is enough to make you extremely apprehensive of anyone wearing a badge.
Why? Cops don't wear good and bad labels. In the interest of myself and my family I have to assume the worse case scenerio. It's the only safe assumption. How can I possibly do otherwise? To do so would be the utmost in irresponibility to myself and my family.
A cop is potentially more dangerous to anyone than any thug walking down the street. You can safely assume that the thug is bad. So you don't even think about placing an ounce of trust in him. You're taught to trust a cop, but you really can't use that as a blanket rule. They don't wear labels. You can attempt to defend yourself against a thug. No matter what a cop does .....you lose. You can not defend yourself against them. They all carry guns. Many will cover for each other, including purjury and beyond. Anything that happens will be twisted to suit the blue wall. This is well documented, so don't wine that it's only sometimes and not the majority because I have no way of knowing if I or a member of my family will draw that lottery.
A cop is an average guy who has the power to choose to destroy an individuals life. Even if you are innocent and prove it you are potentially financially ruined. Not to mention emotionally. And they all know they have that potential power. They have to, it's part of the job.
I hope this has been somehow constructive. If you can tell me how to know which LEO is good or bad when I see one on the side of the road or driving please tell me. I can't see a difference. All I can hope for is that I or a member of my family is not in his sights that day.
Most people I know are middle and upper middle class professionals of all races. They are either business owners or employed fairly high p th ladder. I don't know one who is not totally terrified of any interaction at all of any kind with a Law enforcement officer.
That's a real problem. You need to go out of your way to demonstrate to any individual you are dealing with at the moment that you are one of the good guys. But please realize how you are perceived. That may never change. Even if you feel the fears are unwarranted, they are based in the reality of either personal or third hand experiences. Some of the latter of which may admitedly be exagerated when people retell a story that they heard about. But everything that I listed here is was of my personal experience and is truthful and not exagerated. How can I feel comfortable with a LEO whom I don't know personally? Please help me here. I truly would love to know how to tell if the LEO of the moment is good or bad.
Until you have a solution, you just have to deal the perception of your profession. That's no different than a good lawyer or decent honest auto mechanic. It just goes with the territory. If you can't handle it, do what we all do when there's something about a job that we can't or aren't willing to deal with. Quit and go do something else or do everything within your power to change it. But please do something besides wine about the public's opinion of your profession. We all put up with it in one way or another. Oh yeh, and don't tell me about how you put your life on the line. We all know you do. You new that before you applied for the job. You chose to accept that. That's no different than a miner who gets buried, a machinist who gets his arm torn off in a machine, an electrician who gets electrocuted or a race car driver who gets kiiled in an accident. You are doing what you do because you choose to. You are not forced to do it. If you don't like the publics perception of your profession, change it or do something else or just put up with it.
Paul Revere
New member
There is an excellent article about what cops deal with on a day to day basis in the March 2000 issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, entitled, "A Walk on the Wild Side", by Fred Reed. I'd suggest you all read it carefully. It's a real eye opener.
Lewis...
It is refreshing to hear that a guy like yourself, sworn to serve and protect, is devoted to do just that. It is also great to hear you utter those words about NOT enforcing un-Constitutional laws while on duty. We need more LEOs like you.
But before you throw in the towel on any negativeness that you've read in these forums, try learning from them. You know it as well as everyone else that comes in here, that stereotypes work not just against your profession, but against many others, from clergy to lawyers, from politicians to postal workers. It is a prejudice based upon the actions of a minority (politicians excepted) which has given your professional (or any other for that matter)its reputation. Hardly any of us would trust a BATF agent because of Waco, or an FBI agent after Ruby Ridge, but not all of them are JBTs.
Since cops deal with so many bottom feeders in their line of duty, sometimes they forget that the majority of people they serve and protect are good, honest, peace loving, freedom loving folks. People who do not want to be forced to inhale or swallow any prejudice, stereotype, or "un-Constitutional" laws. People who don't want to be treated, and do not deserve to be treated like the majority of the scum you must deal with on a day to day basis. The very fact that we the people don't often hear from people like yourself, certainly allows this prejudice to accellerate with each police brutality or Waco type story.
Instead of turning away from these negative threads, it seems much more productive and socially educationally for all of us to be refreshed and enlightened by a cop like yourself...who for the most part agrees with the majority of the good people in here. We can all benefit from your input. Most importantly, it reminds us all that the next cop who may pull us over when we forgot to use our turn signal, may not be interested in throwing us against the hood of his squad car and violating our precious freedoms.
I'd be interested in requesting to the Moderators that we have a separate section devoted to "From a Cop's Point of View". I'd read it, and be proud to post responses in it.
Don't be a quitter. We can all benefit by you staying.
Lewis...
It is refreshing to hear that a guy like yourself, sworn to serve and protect, is devoted to do just that. It is also great to hear you utter those words about NOT enforcing un-Constitutional laws while on duty. We need more LEOs like you.
But before you throw in the towel on any negativeness that you've read in these forums, try learning from them. You know it as well as everyone else that comes in here, that stereotypes work not just against your profession, but against many others, from clergy to lawyers, from politicians to postal workers. It is a prejudice based upon the actions of a minority (politicians excepted) which has given your professional (or any other for that matter)its reputation. Hardly any of us would trust a BATF agent because of Waco, or an FBI agent after Ruby Ridge, but not all of them are JBTs.
Since cops deal with so many bottom feeders in their line of duty, sometimes they forget that the majority of people they serve and protect are good, honest, peace loving, freedom loving folks. People who do not want to be forced to inhale or swallow any prejudice, stereotype, or "un-Constitutional" laws. People who don't want to be treated, and do not deserve to be treated like the majority of the scum you must deal with on a day to day basis. The very fact that we the people don't often hear from people like yourself, certainly allows this prejudice to accellerate with each police brutality or Waco type story.
Instead of turning away from these negative threads, it seems much more productive and socially educationally for all of us to be refreshed and enlightened by a cop like yourself...who for the most part agrees with the majority of the good people in here. We can all benefit from your input. Most importantly, it reminds us all that the next cop who may pull us over when we forgot to use our turn signal, may not be interested in throwing us against the hood of his squad car and violating our precious freedoms.
I'd be interested in requesting to the Moderators that we have a separate section devoted to "From a Cop's Point of View". I'd read it, and be proud to post responses in it.
Don't be a quitter. We can all benefit by you staying.
Rugerguy, I'd say trust 90 percent of the LEO's you run into but keep a micro recorder for the other 10.
I've seen things happen both ways, and I still trust almost all cops. Why? Because like society in general most of the people are good but the bad apples geat all the press.
Lewis, you shouldn't leave, as someone said before me, having a LEO to speak to about incidents that happen or how LeO's think about certain things just fosters understanding, something that we need more of, not less. Get to know your public and let us get to know you.
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jones
I've seen things happen both ways, and I still trust almost all cops. Why? Because like society in general most of the people are good but the bad apples geat all the press.
Lewis, you shouldn't leave, as someone said before me, having a LEO to speak to about incidents that happen or how LeO's think about certain things just fosters understanding, something that we need more of, not less. Get to know your public and let us get to know you.
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jones
Kentucky Rifle
New member
C'mon Lewis.
We're both in Louisville and I enjoy reading your posts. I consider you an ally. Reconsider.
Will
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Mendacity is the system we live in.
We're both in Louisville and I enjoy reading your posts. I consider you an ally. Reconsider.
Will
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Mendacity is the system we live in.
Most law enforcement officers are good men and women doing a difficult, dirty, dangerous job. The relatively few bad apples get most of the publicity.
Most peop;e are on your side because it is their side too.
Hang in there, Lewis, you have a lot more friends than you think.
Hard Ball
Most peop;e are on your side because it is their side too.
Hang in there, Lewis, you have a lot more friends than you think.
Hard Ball
- Status