Ohio CCW laws

dakota, before you get into this argument further, you should know that fiddletown is an attorney. Perhaps not from Ohio, but what he is saying IS the accepted "gospel" of the defensive firearms community at large.

Every situation is different. A single "rule" that if you draw you have to fire, is a rule that may get you tried as a murderer. It is simply not true in the vast majority of self defense situations.

I don't know how (or why) this misinformation gets started. Yet I have heard variations of this theme from members of every State. It Is Not True.

Even the studies by Kleck and Lott have shown that the vast majority of encounters, end with the gun being drawn but not fired. There's your "proof."
 
dakota223 said:
do you have proof fiddletown????????????????????????????????????? I only know what our OHIO ccw generated literature says, where the post was originated there manual that the ohio attourney general puts out says. So for the state of ohio refer to this. Its available online! ...
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Do I have proof of what, exactly?

First, as to my background, I'm a lawyer. I'm also an NRA certified instructor in several classes including Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home. I regularly teach the "law" component of NRA Personal Protection classes taught by a number of instructors in our area. My training includes Massad Ayoob's LFI-I and helping Mas teach his MAG40 class.

And yes I do know what the Manual published by the Ohio Attorney General says. It's entitled Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws. I have read it. Anyone else here can read it. It can be found here. The discussion of legal issues associated with the use of force is found on pages 19-25. What it says is consistent with what I have written.

Among other things, Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws says:

  • at page 19 (emphasis added):
    ...In Ohio, deadly force can be used only to prevent serious bodily harm or death. Deadly force can never be used to protect property only. Depending on the specific facts and circumstances of the situation, use of deadly force may lead to criminal charges and/or civil liability....
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  • at page 19 (emphasis added):
    ...If law enforcement and prosecutors determine that a person’s use of deadly force is not justified, criminal charges may be pursued. In a situation where the victim is injured by the conduct of a person using a handgun, the licensee can be charged with assault crimes...
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  • at page 20 (emphasis added):
    ...Depending on the specific facts of the situation, an accused person may claim that use of deadly force was justified to excuse his or her actions, which would otherwise be a crime....
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Nowhere in Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws does it say anything like --

  • dakota223 said:
    ...if you draw your weapon your gonna have to use it....
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  • dakota223 said:
    ...When you pull that firearm your guilty right at that moment!...
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  • ...when you fire that pistol off do what it takes to put the person down for good....
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  • dakota223 said:
    ...if you aim to wound it will be you on trial!...
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  • dakota223 said:
    ..And the prosecutors first question will be if you feared so much for your life, why didnt you aim to kill?
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As far as this "if you pull your gun, you need to use it" business goes, see, for one source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1. It's just one study that shows that a guns is fired in only a minority of successful defensive uses.
 
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Fiddletown:

Thank you for taking your time and for your commitment to address some of the rediculous allegations and assumptions throughout this thread. The Kansas law as I have read it is very similar to the Ohio law as referenced by you.

I am an electrical engineer, and as such I did not feel qualified to address this, but I must comment that I have been bothered and puzzled by many of the statements made by the respondents.

I should have taken the time, but was too lazy. You took action and I commend you for that.

And thank you for your overall commitment to the firearms community.

Bill
 
thank god im not part of this church staff please take off all my thread post my sales post and delete my account ill stick with my fellow brothers that have fought for ohios gun rights in our other forumn.....
 
I think someone just got miffed at being corrected!

dakota223, the best way to leave (in a huff or otherwise), is to just quit posting here (or anywhere else). As for deleting everything you've ever posted? Naw. It just messes with the continuity of those threads.
 
Dakota223 if you are incapable of learning from those who are in a better position to know certain things, then you are doomed to be a no better man than you are at this moment. You seem to lack the emotional maturity that I would hope a CCWr would possess.

If a little corrective information as to the facts of justified self defense gets your panties in a wad, what are you going to do when someone cuts you off on the road, then flips you the bird? Wait, I don't want to know.
 
Just want disconnected from this sight, either take my name and my email out or ill start posting in ways they dont want. Dont want emails ill take my M&P, beretta 96 and armalite i was gonna sell elsewhere another forum.
 
From personal experience, I can tell you that showing your backside to the world is never as fulfilling an experience as you imagine it to be. I'd suggest you grow up, learn to accept criticism and the fact that you don't know everything, and take the information from those who know better.
 
Just want disconnected from this sight, either take my name and my email out or ill start posting in ways they dont want. Dont want emails ill take my M&P, beretta 96 and armalite i was gonna sell elsewhere another forum.
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That sounds incredibly like I want to take my toys and go home. How about you either admit where you were wrong, or make a case why you were right? That's what adults do. Until you started being all offended that anyone dare correct you (even if they are an authority on the subject) no one attacked you personally.

I've been doing guns for 45 years and I learn something new all the time. Threatening to crap on threads will get you nowhere, you'll be locked out, and your whining thread will be memorialized on the forever-net.

Stick around, brother, there's a lot to learn here. Maybe you could even edit out some stuff you might realize you didn't mean, once you cool off. ( like your last three posts)
 
I never said i knew everything........ What I'm saying is the staff needs to delete me. I do not want to be in a forum full of yuppies and rubs. and I dont want any chance of my email and any personal information they may have getting out! So get ahold of staff since they wont get up off there ass! And I will be gone!
 
I don't speak for this site, I am just a fellow member, like you. But I can tell you from experience your user name is not going to be deleted and neither are your posts for the reason Al Norris stated.

However, you are free, as far as I know to remove your email from your account information. Then, if you must go, I wish you well.
 
reason why im ****** off is this morning early am hours I got 3 emails before this **** even started. Threatening me and my family over a damn post i made last night. I dont want to be a part of a community of cowards yuppies and rubs.... Lets see how you people react to bull**** like this and it wont let me take this email adress off! I dont want to be a part of a forumn where people are like that!!!!!!!
 
If you received inappropriate email, that is in my view improper. We should be able to discuss these matters as adults. Perhaps you should bring the emails to the attention of Al Norris.
 
Any communication threatening harm to someone else is a criminal act. It's certainly not anything I've ever experienced from any of the members on this forum, and I'm sure the moderators and owners of this site would take such a thing extremely seriously indeed. There may be vigorously contested opinions and points of view expressed, but there's no place for threats here - from anyone.
 
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Dakota 223: I agree with previous posters. No one should send you inappropriate emails.

By the way, I do not consider myself either the church choir or a yuppie, so I hope you are referring to the persons that sent you emails. I am a Vietnam veteran and was an active Marine for 6 years. I saw more action than I wanted at Khe Sanh during the Tet Offensive and at other locations around Dong Ha, Phu Bai and Chu Lai. I was honorably discharged and moved into a civilian career. That should not make me a yuppie.:D

I think the recent posts have been well intended and continue to hope that we all learn something new every day.

My best wishes to you.
 
dakota, please consider forwarding those emails to me, along with the complete headers, at: antipitas@thefiringline.com

I've also changed a few parameters in your user profile. No one but us mods can see your email addy, unless you give it out in a PM.
 
I dont want to be a part of a community of cowards yuppies and rubs..
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What the hell is a rub?

As to the original question, the friend is an idiot. If that is the type of legal advise he accepts and believes in, he will probably be an inmate sooner or later. The instructor is a bigger idiot, but unfortunately, he won't be the one taking the heat for his bad instruction.
 
Al Norris:
Every situation is different. A single "rule" that if you draw you have to fire, is a rule that may get you tried as a murderer. It is simply not true in the vast majority of self defense situations.

I don't know how (or why) this misinformation gets started. Yet I have heard variations of this theme from members of every State. It Is Not True.

Even the studies by Kleck and Lott have shown that the vast majority of encounters, end with the gun being drawn but not fired. There's your "proof."
Click to expand...

Here is gun-lawyers view of continuum of force and the charges you may face:
Pointing a gun at someone is legally distinguishable from drawing and displaying without aiming it at someone. Aiming a loaded gun at a person, without justification, is automatically "reckless endangerment", while drawing a gun and pointing it straight down at the ground is not.

Displaying a gun, muzzle-down, with the implicit message that you are prepared to shoot the other person, is a crime (assault, terroristic threats, whatever), in the absence of justification. But pointing it at them is an ADDITIONAL crime. And shooting at them is ANOTHER crime. And hitting them is ANOTHER crime. So if you don't aim it, shoot it, or hit them, you have not committed those crimes. You only need to justify the crimes you commit, not the ones that you don't commit.

"Justification" means that the harm you cause with your criminal act is less than the wrongful harm that you seek to prevent. So shooting someone is only justified by your goal of preventing the wrongful killing of yourself or another, or the severe unprovoked injuring of yourself or another. But scaring someone can be justified with a much lower standard; if you scare the perp so that he doesn't punch you in the face, it's arguable that the harm you prevented (being punched in the face wrongfully) would have been worse than the harm you caused (scaring a thug who was about to punch you in the face.) Bleeding is worse than ******* yourself.

Bottom line, "using" is not the same as "displaying the ability to use". The rules on the use of deadly force are not the same as the rules on threatening the use of deadly force. Otherwise, simply drawing your pistol would be chargeable as "murder".
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P.S. This is from a Penna. lawyer's viewpoint.
 
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