Off-duty cop killed by burglars; What went wrong?

Double Naught Spy and Sir William;

When was the last time either of you stood up with a shield on your chest and a gun in your hand in defense of ANYONE? This cop knew a crime was in progress. He answered the call as duty and honor demand if this is your profession, and he paid with his life. If he had called 911 and done nothing else you two would have pilloried him for malfeasance. Instead, he stood up like a MAN, took action and paid the price.

You weren't there. You have no idea what transpired and yet you feel knowledgeable enough to go on a public forum and criticize a MAN. Note MAN in capitals cause that was what this officer was. Not some nameless, backstabbing, anonymous critic on an internet forum, but a MAN who answered the call to duty. Try and reflect on that as you sit there at your keyboards and type.


Sean L. McMahon
Lt. NYPD (Retired)
 
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Best of all, this new breed of man-toy is self-aware and capable (to a small degree) of learning and adaptation. Once a new weapon has been adopted by a unit with initials, they go into full seek-and-attain mode, stopping at nothing until they have a blaster that matches the new one exactly. They may never fire it, but it will definitely be the most accurate copy of the new equipment that mortal man can produce. Along the way, they will ensure that they find a holster that will minimize damage to the finish of their unfired weapons so that they can retain that just-issued look.

Along with this adaptability and intellect comes a stunning new concept in artificial intelligence. Each Tactical Teddy comes equipped with a USB port cleverly concealed where his rectum should be. Just plug ole Tactical Teddy into the USB jack of ANY internet-capable computer and he will immediately log on to the nearest tactical website and begin holding forth on the best ways to subdue bad guys and execute dynamic entries. This would be the Twenty-First century’s best example of the phrase “talking out of his ass”.

You will notice a tendency for Tactical Teddies to seek out other TT units on the web for the express purpose of boosting their egos and enabling the transfer of an endless stream of imaginary war stories. They will gather on the web and adopt unique call signs, indicative of their lethal capabilities and training. Some of the more advanced units will engage autonomous learning sub-routines and actually attend some form of gunfighting school and from that point on will become a universal expert on death-dealing and mayhem incitement. (Note; this option is for the advanced user and should be carefully monitored lest the TT sustain a self-inflicted injury due to an ND with his never-before fired blaster.)

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Available at K-Mart and on the web.

©2005 Seanmac45
 
You know WHAT happens. Olympic Swimmer can drown, Mike Tyson can get knocked out by a non-skilled guy throwing windmill punches, and highly trained persons in LE or in the military can lose a gunfight. It was 2 on 1, what do you expect. Ironically if you watch the Sopranos this guy is a prime example of life imitating art. In the show he was a loser, trying to become a wise guy criminal. You mean to tell me that this guy who was in a movie and a hit TV show has to resort to robbery and murder. I bet you the guy has loads of money but got caught up in the criminal lifestyle...its stupid, just plain stupid.
 
Geez guys, I am sorry. I was of the impression that this thread was in the Tactics and Training section of The Firing Line and not in the Martyr Memorial section. I thought this was the section where things like shootings get discussed as we are interested in knowing how such events unfold and learning from such events so that we may utilize insight gained here to apply to future events. I would have sworn the thread title included the query, "What went wrong?" Little did I know that discussions of what did go wrong or what might have gone wrong that resulted in the officer's death were not to be discussed if any such information or opinion gave the impression that the officer was anything other than flawless in his performance. As Capt. Charlie noted, there was a time when discussing falling officer's mistakes, shortcomings, etc. wasn't done too much. More than 30 years after Newhall, I didn't realize we still could not discuss such matters, oh but wait, we can and we do.

Maybe I have just missed a point of protocol. Is there an appropriate waiting period before such matters can be discussed? I know that we can discuss at length such matters an Newhall (mentioned by Capt. Charlie), the Miami FBI shootout, Mark Wilson's tactics in Tyler, and talk about all the mistakes made that resulted in severe injury and death to good people, MANly people who went in and did the best they could and yet so many died. I am fairly certain none of us were at Newhall, the Miami FBI shootout, or in Tyler, so does that mean we can't discuss the information?

None of us were with the Georgia State Trooper for the incident discussed here ... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182984&highlight="officer+shot"

The trooper was killed. The video is now used for LEO training and it isn't being used as the example of what should be done. Mistakes were made. When a cop is knowingly dealing with bad guys or people committing illegal acts and the cop dies, mistakes were made. So why aren't you guys all over that thread and chastising non-cops for pointing out errors made? Are their opinions not valid because they aren't cops? Of course not.

I have known both cops and firefighters that have been killed in the line of duty. A common thread running through all of those deaths was determining how it was that the situation deteriorated to the point that resulted in the loss of life. Nobody wants to repeat those mistakes.

seanmac45, I did not criticize the officer, but how he handled things based on what has been made public so far. And in using your logic, you weren't there either. You have no idea what transpired and yet you feel knowledgeable enough to go on a public forum and criticize another for an opinion for which you cannot definitely say is right or wrong. I am sorry, but that sounds like you are applying a double standard.

Let's see, Pat Rogers said,
No one seems to be in a great hurry to critique armed citizens who do poorly (the west coast mall shooting being the most recent), but everyone seems to be an expert in police procedure.
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Apparently you haven't seen a lot of my posts. You will be happy to know that I don't care if folks are black, white, male, female, LEO, military, civilian, armed, unarmed, good guy, or bad guy when it comes to learning about what works, doesn't work, can't work, may work, etc.

On McKown and the shooting at Tacoma Mall, please read...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189562&page=2

Here I mention my own failing to respond correctly to a shot fired at a gun show...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189641&page=2&highlight=frisco

And ESPECIALLY when it comes to non-LEOs performing in self defense situations, I am not a big proponent of the idea that just because the good guys won that the action taken to effect the win was prudent. Mark Wilson in Tyler selflessly responded to an active shooter situation that he apparently could see from his apartment window over the square in Tyler, Texas. Wilson either was an owner of previously owned a local gun range and was involved in concealed handgun licensing and defensive shooting classes. Mark Wilson is a hero. He is a dead hero. As with the NYC cop, it is a shame he was lost. Why Wilson didn't open fire from the protection and high vantage point of his apartment is unknown. Why he took a pistol to fight a man with a rifle is unknown. He could see the events from his apartment, so he had to know the gunman had a rifle. Since he taught self defense shooting, he had to know that pistols are far from idea combat guns compared to long guns. Why Wilson failed to transition from torso to the head when his torso shots were ineffective is unknown. On top of all that and very unlucky on Wilson's part, the fight between Wilson and the gunman would result in one of them going down. Why? Because Wilson was using the engine end of the gunman's truck as cover. There is no indication that he knew the truck belonged to the gunman, but the gunman did identify Wilson as a threat (obviously) and realized that to effect his egress from the situation, he would have to get Wilson out of the way. After initially dropping Wilson, the gunman then walked over and shot him again, supposedly in the head. Wilson died.

I Wilson a hero? Yes. Did Wilson make any mistakes? Assuming the right amount of time has passed to discuss the matter, I would have to say that Wilson made some mistakes. This statement in no way casts dispersions on Wilson or his honor. Simply put, the actions he chose were not ideal for dealing with the threat in that situation and as such resulted in Wilson's death.

Oh, and I really like it how you guys are quick to cast dispersions on the information currently available, calling it into question, but so far, none of y'all have any more solid information on the matter. If the information available is dubious, your reasons for implying that anything other than glowing opinions of the officer must be bogus also means your opinions are bogus because you don't have actual information beyond what has been presented. Pat, your comment was great in this regard...

This cop did a terrific job. It turns out he died.
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So please share with us, Pat, as to just how you know this cop did a terrific job. Please, address your own queries to me ....
Do you know what happened? Do you have access to the Unusual Incident report? The Firearms Discharge/ Assault Report? Or are you just shooting from the lip again?
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To be honest, I am a little disappointed that a man such as yourself, with such a highly tauted law enforcement career would resort to such flawed argument construction. I would have expected more from you. You know fully well that a person's position in society, job experience, or title does not validate or invalidate their opinion or perspective. You are simply trying to bully the opposition into submission via demanding to know that information such as about their time as an NYC cop, but the tactic is a weak form of misdirection and is consider a logic flaw in argument construction.

You see, with the personal attack meant to discredit your opposition, you are no longer discussing the topic being considered. You are trying to substantiate that your opposition can't have a valid perspective if the opposition doesn't meet your standards. The really sad part of this is that the tactic works with a lot of people, especially those with low self esteem, and you see it quite a bit in political arenas and in the courtroom.

Usually when folks resort to this sort of low level personal attack, in this case an attack of credentials, it is because they have nothing better to offer to counter the arguments being made. So when you can't counter the arguments, you attack the person and the person's credentials.

Oh, and by the way, I am doing the same thing to you, complimenting you and similarly attacking you at the same time. I countered your personal credentials attack by noting my disappointment in your abilities to argue the issues given your credentials. The ploy is meant to show that while you may have such grand credentials, that if that is the best you can do with all your credentials is a personal attack, then you don't crap in terms of a valid argument against my opinions, Sir Williams',etc.

So for the time being, all we have is the errornet and the news articles put forth by various agencies including the NYPD. If you had the documentation necessary to substantiate that I was wrong, I am certain you would have chosen to go that route instead of the weaker personal attack.

And you know, I may be wrong on this, but whether or not I am right or wrong is not determined by my time in the NYPD.
 
Usually when folks resort to this sort of low level personal attack, in this case an attack of credentials, it is because they have nothing better to offer to counter the arguments being made. So when you can't counter the arguments, you attack the person and the person's credentials.
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As has been said so many times previously here at TFL, if you have to attack something, attack the post, not the poster.

In the same light, we can discuss the officer's mistakes without berating the officer, and that's how it should be.

Time to step back, take 5 deep breaths, count to 10 in 3 languages, and cool it a little folks.
 
Its been said but I will say it again, none of us were there to know what really happened. Did the officer confront one suspect and another hiding shot him from consealment? Did he hesitate to shoot when he saw what in the dark may or may not have been a weapon? Did any countless number of other things happen? We do not know and none of us in the position to question this officers action until all the facts are in.

That said, when I am off duty, I AM OFF DUTY. I have heard this referrred to by other LEOs as "off duty blinders". I deal with enough crimimal activity the 12 hours I am on the job, I know those burglers will end up in handcuffs sooner rather than later. I will report crimes to the 911 dispatch like any good citizen should, and if a LIFE is in danger I will use deadly force as a last resort to pervent serious harm to myself or another person. I am not judging the actions of anyone else, any cop who is KIA is a hero to me reguardless of what actions they took.
 
There's this nasty little gremlin out there by the name of Murphy's Law that seems to haunt law enforcement with a myriad of variations, the first, foremost, and scariest of which is "the unexpected is not always the expected". You can train until cows fly, and there's no question that it ups the odds of going home to the little lady at the end of shift, but the unpredictable, unexpected happens, none the less. Can we term it a mistake and should we? Yes on both counts. Newhall, CA, 1972, taught us that. Prior to that, it was sacrilege to even whisper that a fallen cop made a mistake. The Newhall incident sparked the movement that resulted in today's officer survival training. So we learn and we train, and we're safer... until the next variation of Murphy rears its ugly head. Something new, something not anticipated.
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I don't see how Murphy's Law enters into it. I take Murphy's Law to be more aptly related to random coincidence than the result of deliberate actions taken which did not work out in a preferred way.

I am wondering what might have happened to this cop if he had shouted "Police, freeze!" from behind some sort of substantial cover, for example. Is it possible to take one in the chest even though you're shouting with your head peeking out from around a building's corner?

Others have mentioned that we should be discussing tactics, not personality, and I agree. I think it's gonna turn out that tactically, the officer should not have ventured equipped as he was to investigate a burglary in progress. The officer's defenders here will raise the strawman that if he had not rushed in unwisely to surprise two armed burglars while not wearing any protective gear, we would all be saying that he was a coward, negligent, blah blah. Why not wait until we have said such things before chastising us for it? As it stands, we're chastised for what we say AND what we have not even said. I sure wish I could win arguments so effortlessly... :rolleyes:

I think that the best thing that could come out of this is to make some people realize that it's incongruous and silly to say that "everything was done the way you're supposed to do it, but he still got himself killed." That's logically impossible. If everything was done right, things come out the way you want them to, not the way you hope they don't ever come out.


-azurefly
 
If everything was done right, things come out the way you want them to, not the way you hope they don't ever come out.
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I only wish that were true, if it were, many good cops and soldiers would still be alive. But its not, none of us know everything, and anything from vehicle malfuctions to hidden BGs can kill. Murpy's law is what you could not have controlled going wrong. Again, we DON'T know what really occured in this case so we cannot discuss the officers tactics.
 
The Officer is a hero and deserves our respect. We do need to learn from the tragic results. If you are an LEO, as I am, keep your old Body armor near your HD gun along with a flashlight. You may need it in 21st Century America. A hi-cap pistol w/ tac light or shotgun would have been handy against two perps, as well.

Also, always challenge from behind cover, if possible. You will be fighting from a fortified position.

If the bad guy flees on foot, so be it. I know progressive Dept.s are treating foot pursuits as barricaded gunmen situations when the subj gets out of sight. A fellow officer barely escaped a few 9mm rounds when he rounded a corner while in foot pursuit a few years ago.:eek:


Don
 
The cop was plain foolish. His 30K a year shift was done and he should have just ignored the sights and sounds as everyone of his neighbors did and just went to bed. If he did he would be alive today just like his neighbors.

He chose the naive and foolish path, probably due to his upbringing where some old fool told him to protect the innocent and the meek and to live with dignity. Instead of acting the coward and waiting for others to seek justice, this cop foolishly acted on impulse due to his ingrained set of beliefs and he got killed for it. The worst part of it all is that now that he is dead, all that will be remembered is that he was the fool cop who got himself shot by one of the Sopranos.

We have to remember we are not living in the America of our forefathers here where neighbors back each other up and appreciate us acting upon the law. There is nothing of our neighbors that is worth our lives protecting.
 
He chose the naive and foolish path, probably due to his upbringing where some old fool told him to protect the innocent and the meek and to live with dignity. Instead of acting the coward and waiting for others to seek justice, this cop foolishly acted on impulse due to his ingrained set of beliefs and he got killed for it.
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And that's a bad thing??? And what's next? Standing by while some dirtball rapes an old woman??? Laughing while someone dies in the street, crying for help?

We have to remember we are not living in the America of our forefathers here where neighbors back each other up and appreciate us acting upon the law. There is nothing of our neighbors that is worth our lives protecting.
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With an attitude like yours, WOD, we'll never relive those times, either. People are compared to sheep for more than just being passive. They also won't stand united.

You advocate every man for himself, WOD, and the wolves are sniffing out your trail. I wonder what those forefathers you mentioned would think if they were able to consider your words. :mad:
 
I understood WOD as making tongue in cheek commentary. I appreciated the sarcasm. Our parens did a TERRIBLE job of raising us. We stand on both feet or roll on in wheelchairs, we salute the flag, we appreciate what duty, honour and country mean and we don't understand ESL. We learned to drive on a foot started, three on the tree slant six and there was lead in the air, the walls were painted with it and our water was piped through it. Our parents just weren't aware of the damage they were doing. I guess we should form a support group, a PAC, lobby for federal funding for rehabilitation or apply for disability/SSI. Don't you know that doing the right thing is wrong? I was even a (shudder) Boy Scout!
 
I think the officer should have waited for backup instead of confronting the burglers by himself. I am going to go out on a limb here and guess at what was going on in his mind. He might have thought that they would roll over and comply or simply run away. He might have just thought that is was a couple of kids causing some mischief. He might have thought that they would be gone by the time the calvary got there. We won't ever know what he was thinking. I'm sure this is every police officer's nightmare, when something completely routine goes south in a hurry.

I'm glad that he responded rather than taking the stance that he is off duty. Cops who care about their neighborhood are never "off duty". Those are the police that people love and those are the ones that people respect. It is tragic that he lost his life, but he fought valiantly and managed to return fire despite being struck in the chest by a .357 round.

Rest in Peace. I hope those scumbags die from their wounds or get the death penalty. Actually, it is better they die from their wounds so we don't have to house and feed them for 20 years or so before their number is up. They probably didn't even think twice about shooting the officer. If I was the EMT that responded to the scene, my treatment for the suspects would be pouring some salt in their wounds!
 
Dude, I think you totally missed the guy's sarcasm.
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It appears I did. WOD, please accept my apology if that was indeed the case :o .

Indifference to the suffering of others is something that has pushed my "mad" button for a long time. While in Philadelphia during my service days, I saw a man mugged and knocked to the ground in broad daylight and in the presence of numerous other people. Before we could get to him, we watched several people not only ignore him, but actually step over him! :mad:

For us to remain strong as a country, we need to be united in matters both constitutional and non. If people stood together on the streets as well as in the courtroom, I think crime would be reduced to a mere fraction of what it is and our need for defensive weaponry would be greatly diminished.
 
what went wrong

Over dissected, If/when someone happens upon a crime in progress making split-second decissions whats supposed to go right?
 
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