Odd results with Titegroup.
- Thread starter dahermit
- Start date
The only part of a Dillon powder hopper than can cause issues is if something gets stuck in the powder bar opening, like a small flake of the foam paper used to seal the 8 lb jugs with. One of the guys I shoot USPSA with cranked out 300 rounds on his 650, only to find out that they were all screwed up, couldn't even finish the match. Turns out it had a piece of paper in the bar opening. The other thing is make sure the little nylon pin is all the way down on the spacer bar. Dillon makes 4 powder bars, magnum, large, small and extra small part number 20780. You may get much more consistent results from that at 3.2 grains than from the regular small bar. Again, you'd have to start weighing charges. I use a AWS 20 Gemini jewelers scale, about $25, accurate to +/- .015 grains. Excellent for weighing small charges. We used to shoot .45acp 255 grain flat nose or 10mm 200 grain flat nose bullets for beating up pins in rolling thunder events (3 man team, 25 pins, AR15, pistol and shotgn)
By the way, what are your times for the pins?
By the way, what are your times for the pins?
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I have no idea...it is my own set-up at home. I do not compete anymore because the local club seems to have reverted to mostly rim-fire. When I competed center-fire, I use a six-inch S&W 657 (.41 Magnum), with a 240 grain bullet over 6.5 Unique...a very light load. The loads did not have to be heavy inasmuch as the "bowling pins" were a steel knock-over set up. They could be set to fall down to and including .22 rimfire. When I did shoot in their competions, it was over sixteen years ago, so I do not remember my times, but I usually won their large center-fire, category. Nowadays, its out to the barn with my K38 to shoot at my own swinging bowling pin setup (I do not have to reset them each time...the movement of each pin indicates a hit.) I shoot a minimum of 66 rounds (all six speed loaders and all five groups of six rounds in my bench block), every day when it is not too cold to shoot with bare hands and my shooting glasses don't fog-up, so in the last thirty days alone, I have fired at least 2000 or so rounds. With casting lead getting hard to find, I try to stick with 125 grain bullets in the appropriate cartridge. Sometimes when saving lead, I shoot a heck of a lot of .32 S&W Long in one of those little pre J frames with a flat hammer spring...I forget what they are called. If I could find a K-32 I could afford, I would do the majority of my shooting with that. But, as it is, I have to struggle with the poor fixed sights on the little .32 when I shoot that.
I have the small powder bar in the Dillon meter...took the large one out years ago. Closed all the way, it still drops 1.7 grains of Bullseye...which I use for the .32 S&W under a 93 grains Lee home cast bullet. In all, I shoot so much cast that I have two Lee six cavity molds for each handgun bullet I shoot...in my old age, I would rather shoot than cast...I would never want to go back to the days I stood in front of the kitchen range casting 429421 K.T. bullets in a Lyman single cavity mold.
I got nuthin' either. But . . .
I do want to chime in about TiteGroup: I agree completely . . . It is fine and dense, and meters really well.
I load and shoot a lot of 38 Special loaded with TG. But I'm mostly plated bullets in the 148 and 158 grainage. So my experience is mostly apples n oranges to yours. So I'm not much help with your specific problem. I personally have not experienced it (thousands of rounds); but like I said - apples n oranges anyway.
I have done a lot of chronographing with 38/TG. And I can say without a doubt that TG is an amazingly NON-position sensitive propellant. Despite case fill volumes in the 30% (or less) neighborhood, chronograph results show little difference with powder position. I have tested this thoroughly with the gun "tilt back" procedure, and not. Makes virtually no difference. I use Winchester primers (WSP), btw.
I'm with FrankenMauser. The next step is to chronograph.
P.S. - I "double up" with the hearing protection too. Just thought I'd throw that in.
I do want to chime in about TiteGroup: I agree completely . . . It is fine and dense, and meters really well.
I load and shoot a lot of 38 Special loaded with TG. But I'm mostly plated bullets in the 148 and 158 grainage. So my experience is mostly apples n oranges to yours. So I'm not much help with your specific problem. I personally have not experienced it (thousands of rounds); but like I said - apples n oranges anyway.
I have done a lot of chronographing with 38/TG. And I can say without a doubt that TG is an amazingly NON-position sensitive propellant. Despite case fill volumes in the 30% (or less) neighborhood, chronograph results show little difference with powder position. I have tested this thoroughly with the gun "tilt back" procedure, and not. Makes virtually no difference. I use Winchester primers (WSP), btw.
I'm with FrankenMauser. The next step is to chronograph.
P.S. - I "double up" with the hearing protection too. Just thought I'd throw that in.
Isn't the "starting load" where all the loading manuals tell handloaders to start?
I started with the Hodgdon starting load for 125 grain lead bullets. It produced adequate accuracy (bench rest, sandbags), for my purpose. I went as high as 3.4 grains but inasmuch as my interest is steel (do not have to have the energy to push real ones off a bench when hit) bowling pin shooting, I wanted the lightest possible load for double-action shooting speed. I settled on 3.2 for my rounds. The kick from 3.4 Titegroup was just a tad sharper than I wanted. I am used to shooting 2.8 of Bullseye with the same bullet, but for a time I was out of Bullseye and had to go with something else (I now have an 8lb. Keg of Titegroup and an have finally found an 8lb. keg of Bullseye, but am determined to use the Titegroup up before going back to Bullseye).
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What for? I know that some of the rounds are inconsistent, I don't need a chronograph to prove it to me...I can hear the difference. Consider if I shot my 66 or so rounds over a chrony and I found that three or so were significantly faster...I would say, "Yup, there is a problem!" Something I already know...how many exact feet per second difference tells me nothing of significance. I could likely learn more if I pulled down my 66 rounds and weighed each powder charge...but I am not going to do that.
Did anyone bother reading about how I found the rust/whatever in the drop tube? Or, are we all just reading our own posts now?
I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, flakes of powder would catch and build-up in the tube and then at some point, the hung-up powder drops creating a heavier than normal round...or maybe not. In any event, I cleaned out the drop tube, loaded 100 or so rounds and will know for sure tomorrow when I shoot them.
Not having seen the rust buildup.. but from you description it was 'noticeable' if it were flake powder I would say you had a bridging issue.
Since your powder is fine.. I would surmise you had hung up powder that would occasionally drop a heavier charge. With a fast powder, .2 gr. can be noticeable. .5 gr. would be obvious.
Aside from rust build up.. a little static charge could hang some extra powder. All you need is humidity under 30% when you are loading and you run that risk. Simple compounding of issues.
Since your powder is fine.. I would surmise you had hung up powder that would occasionally drop a heavier charge. With a fast powder, .2 gr. can be noticeable. .5 gr. would be obvious.
Aside from rust build up.. a little static charge could hang some extra powder. All you need is humidity under 30% when you are loading and you run that risk. Simple compounding of issues.
FrankenMauser
New member
I was just trying to make a reasonable suggestion.dahermit said:
A "harder kick" and "louder report" tell you nothing. It could all be perception.
What you need is good, solid data. ...Such as the velocities reported by a chronograph, to tell you HOW FAR OFF the "anomaly" loads are from the mean - if they really are deviating.
It could be 25 fps, or it could be 125 fps. A reasonable person would find that information helpful.
But, if you feel the need to constantly take offense to anything I post, that's fine. You've been doing it for years. I'd be a fool to expect you to be level-headed enough to listen to a reasonable suggestion, rather than to continue following baseless emotion.
Good luck.
Shotgun Slim
New member
I had the exact same experience as dahermit with my 40 reloads with Titegroup. I have decades of reloading experience with rifle ,shotgun and pistol ammo,having loaded several hundred thousand rounds without ever so much as a squib load or anything happening other than what should happen with anything I have ever made.(I am very careful-anal even). So during the powder shortage I finagled some Titegroup to try. Loaded up some fairly light stuff to try and had about 1 in five that had considerably more recoil and noise than expected. It was the difference between say 38 special and full house 357 mag. Went home and measured all remaining rounds for abnormalities-none.Pulled all the rounds apart to inspect the case interiors,weigh the charges,measure and weigh the bullets-looked for anything to explain the abberations because I did not like the situation one bit. Long story short is I will never know because there was nothing about the rounds that was incorrect. I have used many powders in my time with no craziness,so I gave the Titegroup away.And yes I informed the recipient that there had been a problem-he has used the rest of it with no issues. No more Titegroup for me. I will not rant about the powder being no good or whatever,just too many others to use for good results. It will always bother me,as a careful reloader,that I could not identify and solve the issue.
If you are shooting 0.357" diameter bullets in a 38 Spec., all I see is that your bullets are too small. I have never in all my days of handloading shot nothing less than 0.358" diameter bullets in 38 Spec. or 357 Mag.
Since you refuse to chronograph the loads as a diagnostic approach, then I would assume that you have not slugged the barrel nor the throats of the cylinder. Sure, you know when a shot goes "bang" more than the next shot does, but you are using a sort of half-ass approach to diagnose the problem.
In my opinion basing velocities on sound is imprecise and subject to error, and how calibrated is your hearing? I don't know anyone who could listen to a gun retort and say "that bullet is 800 fps and the one previous 900 fps".
Having measured velocities will add credence that something strange is going on. I use a chronograph all the time and it is a great tool. By the way, I would clean out the inside of your powder horn, I have had clogging with some powders, maybe that is your issue.