ObamaCare Decision: Please Read Page 3

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A different view than most.

Some here may just be interested in these two articles of mine:

http://www.freelibertywriters.com/ch...oes-it-re.html

And

http://www.freelibertywriters.com/ch...at-is-not.html
I am not a lawyer but there seems to be some debate within the legal community about whether the the commerce clause restrictions are a binding part of the ruling or merely dictum. I suspect that congress will take it as dictum and future lower courts and a future (after more appointments) SCOTUS may agree that what we assumed was a limitation on federal power was just non-binding discussion.

http://www.volokh.com/2012/07/02/a-simple-solution-to-the-holding-vs-dictum-mess/
Much literal and blogospheric ink has already been spilled over the question of whether the Court’s conclusion that the Commerce Clause does not authorize the individual mandate is part of the holding or mere dictum.
 
Without having read the links varminter gave us, I thought to place my own thoughts on this decision.

First, I think we need to look at what the questions were, that the Court granted certiorari on.

From NFIB v. Sebelius (11-292) we have:
The question presented is whether the ACA must be invalidated in its entirety because it is non-severable from the individual mandate that exceeds Congress’ limited and enumerated powers under the Constitution.

From Florida v. Dept. of H&HS (11-400) we have:
1. Does Congress exceed its enumerated powers and violate basic principles of federalism when it coerces States into accepting onerous conditions that it could not impose directly by threatening to withhold all federal funding under the single largest grant-in-aid program, or does the limitation on Congress‘s spending power that this Court recognized in South Dakota v. Dole, 483 U.S. 203 (1987), no longer apply?

2. May Congress treat States no differently from any other employer when imposing invasive mandates as to the manner in which they provide their own employees with insurance coverage, as suggested by Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U.S. 528 (1985), or has Garcia‘s approach been overtaken by subsequent cases in which this Court has explicitly recognized judicially enforceable limits on Congress‘s power to interfere with state sovereignty?

3. Does the Affordable Care Act‘s mandate that virtually every individual obtain health insurance exceed Congress‘s enumerated powers and, if so, to what extent (if any) can the mandate be severed from the remainder of the Act?

From Dept. of H&HS v. Florida (11-398) we have:
1. Whether Congress had the power under Article I of the Constitution to enact the minimum coverage provision.

Petitioners also suggest that the Court direct the parties to address the following question:

2. Whether the suit brought by respondents to challenge the minimum coverage provision of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is barred by the Anti-Injunction Act, 26 U.S.C. 7421(a).

In granting cert to 11-393 and 11-400, the Court agreed to the following:
The petition for a writ of certiorari in No. 11-393 is granted. The petition for a writ of certiorari in No. 11-400 is granted limited to the issue of severability presented by Question 3 of the petition.

In granting cert to 11-398, the Court agreed to this:
The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted. In addition to Question 1 presented by the petition, the parties are directed to brief and argue the following question: "Whether the suit brought by respondents to challenge the minimum coverage provision of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is barred by the Anti-Injunction Act, 26 U.S.C. §7421(a)."

Separately, in granting cert to 11-400, the Court said:
The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted limited to Question 1 presented by the petition.

Phrased another way, the Court asked whether or not the act was constitutional and if not, could certain portions be severed from the act.

So then, we have:

Four Justices said it was perfectly fine. Four justices said it was flatly beyond the reach of the authority of Congress granted by the Constitution.

The controlling opinion (decision) was therefore penned by Chief Justice Roberts.

In reaching his decision, CJ Roberts agreed with Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Thomas, that under the Commerce Clause, it was beyond the power of the Congress. CJ Roberts then used the constitutional avoidance doctrine to define the penalty a tax, and therefore the act was constitutional under the taxing power of the Congress.

Having reached the conclusion that the act was constitutional, CJ Roberts did not have to reach to the question of severabilty.

What CJ Roberts did not do was to decide that the tax was a constitutional tax, as defined. That was not necessary to the decision.

That leaves open the question of whether this is a direct tax, in direct violation of the taxing powers of Congress.

There was one other thing that CJ Roberts did, that in my mind was entirely wrong. He rewrote the act to say that the Medicaid enhancements appropriations only could be withheld from the States that did not implement the new Medicaid rules. This is a rewrite, since the act is specific in that States that do not enter into the new enhanced Medicaid plan were to lose ALL Medicaid funding.

This last part was beyond the authority of the Court. The Judicial branch can rule on applicability of an act, but cannot rewrite an act.

The above, in my opinion, are the salient points to the decision from last week.
 
sholling said:
I am not a lawyer but there seems to be some debate within the legal community about whether the the commerce clause restrictions are a binding part of the ruling or merely dictum.

I find that discussion odd since holding and obiter dicta are not the only choices. To the degree this issue of first impression is met with a rationale for the decision, you have something valuable for future use.

5-4 decisions are of dubious value in argument, but this does look like a coherent response to the commerce clause issue. Future courts will be bound by what the justices at that time find most persuasive; there are no permanent constitutional victories.
 
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Anybody here ever read the law? I haven't but then I wasn't going to vote on it. Someone said they downloaded it. I understand it's pretty thick.

If the whole thing is a tax, well, you do have representation, sort of. You may not have the representative you voted for and the representative that got elected may not have any particular belief that he represents you in any way but that's the way it works. Write your congressman and tell him you want Medicare, Social Security and the affordable health care act all repealed because all right-thinking Americans should be able to manage such things themselves, provided the factory where they work is still open. Better yet, give him a call. He calls and leaves us messages all the time.

The last time there was a revolution over taxes, the taxes were to pay for a war. I guess that's why we don't have a war tax.
 
Originally Posted by mayosligo.
Sometime back a few years there was some outrage that physicians were asking patients during regular check ups if they had firearms and did they store them safely.

As a member of the medical community I have mixed feelings about the scope and concept of universal healthcare, however I would like to interject a comment on the above post.

I recently graduated a year ago as a nurse, and we were taught that anytime children were admitted (for any reason) and it was found that the parents owned firearms, we were legally obligated to report it to a social worker. Never explored it further, and I don't work in pediatrics so I couldn't tell you how it works. But that is what we were taught to do.

Just something to think about.
 
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Eh, don't know what state you live in but I don't believe there is any state in the union that requires that. That would be lawsuit city. Just look at what happened to the doctors in Florida that tried similar bs.
 
Physicians asking patients about guns is not the topic here.

Let's not get sidetracked into issues that currently have no bearing on the ACA or the decision by SCOTUS.
 
Having reached the conclusion that the act was constitutional, CJ Roberts did not have to reach to the question of severabilty.

What CJ Roberts did not do was to decide that the tax was a constitutional tax, as defined. That was not necessary to the decision.

That leaves open the question of whether this is a direct tax, in direct violation of the taxing powers of Congress.

So in theory, this should leave the door open for future litigation on whether or not the TAX is legal? One of these days someone is going to have to write a law that is actually easy to understand.
 
I remember it quite clearly as it struck me as odd, it was a class on the legal aspects of nursing, which we had to take before we could set foot in a hospital. It covered HIPPA, torts and the like.

That was Washington, and it popped up my final year in Oregon during my rotation on Peds. But who knows, I suppose the instructors could have told us anything they wanted :rolleyes:

But this is starting to get off topic.
 
Makes me wonder what the citizens of Kennesaw GA think.

They've required a handgun for each head of household since 1982 (City Ordinance).

http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law. If convicted, City Clerk Diane Coker said punishment would be determined by the general penalty clause of the Kennesaw Code Ordinance - probably a fine of about $100.

(corrected date).
 
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There is a new Doctors office opening near my parents soon that is CASH only, if you have insurance, its up to you to file it, after you pay cash at the doctors office for services rendered...

I am due for a physical, and called another doctors office here, and was told that depending on when I wanted my appointment, I may have to pay, then possibly file for the insurance claim myself afterwards...

In the past, it was go to the office, present the health insurance card, and pay the co-pay and the doctors office would take care of filing the proper paperwork for the claim under health insurance. Now it seems to be going to, pay cash, here is your reciept if you want to file under your insurance. That is changing here now. It may be in other areas.

From what I can gather, this is an attempt at trying to get people to buy insurance, but yet, when the person files the claim for coverage, it will probably be denied the first time or two, at least, and if a person persists, maybe, just maybe, it will be covered. The doctors offices are cutting back, and there is no reason to believe that the insurance companies wont cut back as well. Why? The longer it takes for someone to file a claim and recieve payment, the more chance there is for someone to give up, and the insurance doesnt have to pay, hence the insurance makes more money.

I dont see this as a "single payer" type system. I see it more as a cash rules type system. If you have the cash, you can have the doctors visit, otherwise, just wait and see on the insurance claim if they approve you going to the doctor. If you dont have the money or insuarance, I guess there is always the ER...

Just my thoughts...

As far as the tax issue goes... If someone is required to buy a product, but may not get results from the product (such as being denied by health insurance), why should they be required to buy it, but if they dont they get taxed anyway?
 
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I have this burning question that has bothered me from the outset of the ruling.

The legislation does not call the penalty a tax. The administration denied it was a tax. Later they started calling it a tax. The Solicitor General argued before the SCotUS that it was a tax. Buying into that argument, the SCotUS ruled that it was, indeed, a tax.

The administration is now saying that it is not a tax and never was a tax.

So my question is this: Did the Solicitor General perjure himself before the Supreme Court?
 
He was not acting as a witness under oath so I would say he didn't commit perjury.

The Act has 13,000 pages. When this takes full effect in 2014 I predict there will be a lot of disappointed folks that were hoping for free insurance but do not get it. Now there is no penalty for the states to not increase Medicare and set up the exchanges. There will be howls of indignation when a large family has to pay the tax and policy prices increase instead of decreasing as promised. If you think waiting times are long be prepared to wait longer. This legislation was cobbled together for political expediency not for efficiency.
 
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As P.J. O'Rourke said back in the Hillarycare days "If you think health care is expensive now, wait 'til it's free."
 
I want to point out that the proper name for the bill is the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). ACA is also used.

Silly nicknames like "Obamacare" and "Hillarycare" really don't contribute to intelligent discussion.
 
Well we can hardly do worse than we're already doing. Here's a chart that shows how much various countries spend per capita on health care, as well as what they get for their money in terms of average number of doctor visits per year and average life expectancy:

off-the-chart-us-and-world-health-care-costs.jpg


Besides, we're already paying the healthcare costs for the uninsured anyway. Hospitals charge uninsured or self-paying patients 2-3X what they charge insured patients for the same procedures/treatment. And when the patients can't pay, the hospitals don't just write it off as an operating loss - in the case of public hospitals at least, they recover the shortfall from taxes.

At least with more people insured, they'll have the weight of an insurance company behind them to negotiate prices, and we should start seeing more people being charged the same amount of money for the same care, instead of the self-payers getting soaked by the hospitals.
 
Interesting chart, ScottRiqui, but the fact that both countries with red lines have populations at least Five fold the population of the countries with blue lines (save maybe Japan) jumps out at me as being very biased.
 
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True - I wish there were a way to compare multiple countries that were the same in every respect except for their healthcare system, but sadly that's not possible. There aren't very many countries in the "300 Million Club", so you either work with the statistics you have or you throw up your hands and say "nothing in the rest of the world is applicable to us - we're too big".

You can find the same basic chart with different countries displayed - some use the top 20 countries in term of life expectancy, for example. We don't fare too well in that one, either.
 
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