Obama starts gun control

[NJgunowner]

Until someone tells us WHAT they plan to do, this is pointless circle talk. You guys can chase your own tails if you want to, I'm pretty sure that's protected in the constitution . Personally I'm not going to fire until I have a target (see gun talk ) .

 

[Patriot86]

Last time I checked fully automatic FN-FAL's, H&K G-3's, AK-47's were not for sale in your typical gunshop. If they are I have been going to the wrong gun shop all these years. I would easily believe that MANY of the weapons Mexican criminals use are stolen or otherwise obtained from Mexican LEO or Military personel and may have been sold or given to Mexico by our government.

 

[thallub]

The US guns to Mexico thing is a myth perpetuated in an effort to force congress to pass another "assault weapons" ban.

Why would a drug lord would have high priced semi-auto AK and AR rifles smuggled into Mexico at a very high prices when he can buy a shipping container full of rock and roll AK 47s on the international arms market for $250 apiece?

When the BATFE and/or the media shows a cache weapons confiscated in Mexico; there are AKMs, RPG launchers, grenades and M16 rifles with grenade launchers. This stuff was not smuggled across the US/Mexican border.

 

[rdf.hack]

I think people are being a bit paranoid. I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to politics, except when it directly concerns me.

Concerning this, I'll be gone from this hole in a few years so I imagine there will not be any BS passed that will directly affect me in that timespan.

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to politics, except when it directly concerns me.

Sooner or later, it will. If not you, your children or grandchildren.

 

[ATW525]

San Francisco Gate has a story today on one of the apparent first steps the Administration is taking with gun control. They have declared that semi-automatic rifles sold by FFLs in Texas, California, Arizona and New Mexico will be subject to the same multiple sales requirements as handguns.

The wife and I have talked about possibly travelling to Texas within the next year. If we do, I'll be sure to bring the cash for a couple semi-automatic rifles to add to the paperwork burden on the ATF.

 

[csmsss]

ATW525, you may very well find you get an unexpected knock at the door from your good friends at BATF. Wouldn't surprise me to see them punitively investigating legitimate buyers.

 

[zukiphile]

Yes, for some the Assault Weapons Ban was a step backwards, yet "personally" I don't consider it an issue, while I know others do. I have no "assault" rifles, no ARs, no AK-47s, no Tec-9s, no magazines that hang 6" below my pistols, etc, and nor do I want or need them. I do not crave automatic weapons or suppressors.

If you consider this issue to be a legal one, and your vision of law is a coherent rule applied to all (rather than a maze of regulation that invests the state with a power to grant waivers and variances), you can't avoid the conclusion that an infringement of the scope of your neighbor's rights also serves to undermine your own rights.

Guys, Relax...

If a civil rights model for setting forth the boundaries of the 2d Am makes sense to you, "relax"ing isn't warranted; there is still quite a bit going on that should rule out complacency.

 

[ATW525]

ATW525, you may very well find you get an unexpected knock at the door from your good friends at BATF. Wouldn't surprise me to see them punitively investigating legitimate buyers.

So, I'll get two new semi-automatic rifles and the opportunity to waste the ATF's time. It'll probably rank up there among the best money I've ever spent.

 

[zxcvbob]

When does this start? I'll be flying down to Texas in a couple of weeks and driving back; I wonder if Carter's Country sells SKS's... (aren't they one of the dealers who ended up briefly in the hot-seat for cooperating with the ATF?)

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I wonder if Carter's Country sells SKS's... (aren't they one of the dealers who ended up briefly in the hot-seat for cooperating with the ATF?)

Yes, they were one of the dealers named in the Washington Post hitlist piece. They were also charged by the local prosecutor; but the charges were dropped after their lawyer went to the press to explain his clients were cooperating with the ATF.

Don't know if they sell SKS rifles; but apparently they are OK with semi-auto detachable mag rifles, so they might.

 

[Tom Servo]

ATW525, you may very well find you get an unexpected knock at the door from your good friends at BATFE

Actually, that's very unlikely. They don't have the manpower to follow up on many multiple handgun sale reports. Add rifles to the mix, and the backlog will be even worse.

For the most part, they review the reports and look at patterns. One guy buying a couple of SKS rifles (or decent handguns) won't set off a warning bell. One guy buying ten sub-$200 pistols will.

 

[jhansman]

It's the creeping incremental approach that is worrisome.

Agreed, but that "approach" is not coming from the feds; it's right in your municipality/county/state. Local restriction is, right now, a greater threat than anything Obama can or may want do. Trust me, the antis want you to keep your eye on the White House; then you may not notice what's happening right under your nose. Example? I live in a state that now has several counties to which you cannot legally ship ammo. Not a huge jump to handguns, and then firearms in general.

The UN? Puuuuuleeze.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They don't have the manpower to follow up on many multiple handgun sale reports. Add rifles to the mix, and the backlog will be even worse.

Hmm; but is that a bug or a feature? Apparently ATF plans to keep the multiple sales forms for two years from the date of sale, and then assuming there is no investigation or other reason, they will destroy them.

I notice this lets them keep sales information on legitimate purchases about 1 year and 364 days beyond the period they can keep information on other legitimate sales and that the restriction on other purchases through NICS was enacted by Congress. Seems like thin ice to me..

Here is the statute the ATF is citing for authority of the Multiple Sales reporting requirement for rifles:

(5)(A) Each licensee shall, when required by letter issued by the Attorney General, and until notified to the contrary in writing by
the Attorney General, submit on a form specified by the Attorney
General, for periods and at the times specified in such letter, all
record information required to be kept by this chapter or such
lesser record information as the Attorney General in such letter
may specify.

(B) The Attorney General may authorize such record information to
be submitted in a manner other than that prescribed in subparagraph
(A) of this paragraph when it is shown by a licensee that an
alternate method of reporting is reasonably necessary and will not
unduly hinder the effective administration of this chapter. A
licensee may use an alternate method of reporting if the licensee
describes the proposed alternate method of reporting and the need
therefor in a letter application submitted to the Attorney General,
and the Attorney General approves such alternate method of
reporting.

In addition to the bolded areas above, I think the Attorney General is going to have trouble justifying the regulation in light of 18 USC 923(g)(1)(A) which states:

(g)(1)(A) Each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, and licensed dealer shall maintain such records of importation,
production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition of
firearms at his place of business for such period, and in such
form, as the Attorney General may by regulations prescribe. Such
importers, manufacturers, and dealers shall not be required to
submit to the Attorney General reports and information with respect
to such records and the contents thereof, except as expressly
required by this section.

Notably, the section doesn't require the reporting of multiple sales of any long gun. I don't think the ATF has any legal authority to issue this regulation and I think it may even violate several existing Congressional laws on the retention of NICS data. I'll have to look at those statutes more.

 

[csmsss]

Actually, that's very unlikely. They don't have the manpower to follow up on many multiple handgun sale reports. Add rifles to the mix, and the backlog will be even worse.

For the most part, they review the reports and look at patterns. One guy buying a couple of SKS rifles (or decent handguns) won't set off a warning bell. One guy buying ten sub-$200 pistols will.

That may be true for most sales. However, the buyer who initiated this aspect of the discussion will be visiting Texas to make his purchase. I would be flabbergasted if an out of state buyer buying multiple "powerful" longarms was not flagged and, at a minimum, the transaction(s) reviewed with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Tom Servo]

I notice this lets them keep sales information on legitimate purchases about 1 year and 364 days beyond the period they can keep information on other legitimate sales and that the restriction on other purchases through NICS was enacted by Congress. Seems like thin ice to me.

As far as I know, the multiple sale reports aren't subject to the Tiahrt timetable. As I mentioned, a copy also gets sent to local law enforcement, and I've never found a statute dictating a period after which they're to be destroyed on that level, either.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Apparently the regulation doesn't require them to report the multiple rifle sales to local law enforcement. Not sure how the timeline works when there isn't any underlying authorization for the actual regulation to begin with.

ETA: For those interested in the UN Small Arms Treaty, the negotiations on the draft treaty to be presented in 2012 are going on this week and NRA News is covering the negotiations. The NRA News pieces are available as podcasts through iTunes and are also on Sirius/XM radio during the NRA's Cam and Company show every day.

Short version: It appears Mexico and several of the Caribbean countries are insisting that civilian firearms must be tracked from manufacture to destruction as part of this treaty. However, this appears to be a minority position at the UN currently.

 

[Tom Servo]

Not sure how the timeline works when there isn't any underlying authorization for the actual regulation to begin with.

Sorry, I was referring to the multiple handgun sale forms. AFAIK, there's no timeline for those.

There is a bill that would bar the use of any Federal funds to collect records of multiple long gun sales, but it's currently languishing in committee. My Senator's already signed on, but this one's worth a phone call or letter.

 

[TexasFats]

Aside from treaties and executive orders, we also need to watch about environmental regulations. It might be easier for the antis to use that vehicle to eliminate ammunition, especially if they declare bullets like the all-copper Barnes bullets to be "armor piercing". Also, lead-free primers are pretty limited in their shelf-life, unlike priming mixtures that use lead compounds. Of course, we could go back to the old corrosive mixtures, but anti-lead regulations could play the devil with both the cost and availability of primers.

No ammo, and our guns are just funny clubs. So, we need to also watch these back-door attacks using environmental regulations.

 

[KyJim]

KyJim, if all it took was a treaty, then why hasn't CIFTA been ratified? It's already signed.

Thallub is correct, IMO.

Obviously, it would have to be ratified before taking effect. I'm not saying it's going to happen. We have to keep on top of such things so that it doesn't happen. The antis have launched a broad, but subtle approach. They tried an EPA reg. They've championed two treaties which include provisions for arms control. They have successfully, for the time being, increased tracking of multiple long arm purchases in some states.

Arguably, a great deal of these actions would not violate the 2A as it stands today. Yet, when a bunch of restrictions are added together, it can cause a significant crimp in the ability to own and shoot firearms.