It simply sounds like a group of people concerned about the direction in which this country is heading and drawing a line in the sand. I applaud them. The ten points they bring up should be something every American should stand behind. They are Vets and police, people who have put themselves in harms way for the good of all, and already in this thread they have been associated with Timothy McVeigh, called kooky, fanatic, inciting rebellion. I'm sure the founding fathers were called worse. They took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, which is the ultimate law of the land ,not the President, the Congress, or the Supreme Court. If you want to join wagonman, then by all means do. I might even join myself.
Oath Keepers
- Thread starter Wagonman
- Start date
- Status
If I "draw a line in the sand" against Martian mind control devices, does that make me a great patriot? No, it makes me a paranoid loon, because there ARE no Martian mind control devices. And there's no foreign troops, and there's no giant concentration camps. It's simply this: crazy talk.
Folks look at people like this and then think gee, that stereotype of gun owners as all being crazy anti-government survivalists ready to shoot anybody who looks at them cross-eyed must be true.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
ADB well said!
This is just fearmongering and we know that people who like to fearmonger a) Don't believe the stuff themselves b) makes LOTS of money off the chumps they convince to join them c) Probably laugh at the suckers they got the money from who are afraid.
This is just fearmongering and we know that people who like to fearmonger a) Don't believe the stuff themselves b) makes LOTS of money off the chumps they convince to join them c) Probably laugh at the suckers they got the money from who are afraid.
MedicineBow
New member
Laugh all you want.
But Order No. 6 ("We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps") happens all the time around me.
The "government" orders that my town be blockaded about three times a year. I kid you not. Once in a while, they drop these big gates on the four roads out of town and...there we are. Concentrated.
Now, so far, this only happens during high plains blizzards. But the precedent is set!
And, let me tell you, it ain't pretty. For instance, when we get blockaded/concentrated by these government forces, it is nearly impossible to get a fresh banana for, like, two days.
And while I know this forced banana-denial is no picnic, I had no idea it was unconstitutional. And treason.
I learn a lot on the internet.
But Order No. 6 ("We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps") happens all the time around me.
The "government" orders that my town be blockaded about three times a year. I kid you not. Once in a while, they drop these big gates on the four roads out of town and...there we are. Concentrated.
Now, so far, this only happens during high plains blizzards. But the precedent is set!
And, let me tell you, it ain't pretty. For instance, when we get blockaded/concentrated by these government forces, it is nearly impossible to get a fresh banana for, like, two days.
And while I know this forced banana-denial is no picnic, I had no idea it was unconstitutional. And treason.
I learn a lot on the internet.
Wagonman, thank you for posting this.
I believe this is a good thing in that it provides an opportunity for the police & military to go on-record regarding their support of the Bill of Rights- which is after all the part of the Constitution we're talking about here.
It also provides an opportunity for like-minded citizens to join in that support- closing the purported 'chasm' between 'us and them' which in my experience, is mostly imaginary.
It all comes down to this- I will not turn my guns on the populace to further unconstitutional laws or prop up tin dictators, at any level of government. Period.
A man will have already identified patriotic duties, resolved the moral issues, made these decisions, had 'the talk' with his OIC and accepted the consequences, whether they lie in the present or in the future. His membership in a group like Oath Keepers will change nothing, other than to give public notice of that articulated in the paragraph above.
To the Chicken Liittles who fear such a group, there is nothing I can say to ease your fears. Either grab a rudder & steer or be prepared to ride the ship into the rocks. The ship of state proceeds toward its inevitable fate, with or without you.
ADB- whether we agree or not, I LOL'ed at the line about Martian mind control devices...obviously, you haven't seen the bulletin
I believe this is a good thing in that it provides an opportunity for the police & military to go on-record regarding their support of the Bill of Rights- which is after all the part of the Constitution we're talking about here.
It also provides an opportunity for like-minded citizens to join in that support- closing the purported 'chasm' between 'us and them' which in my experience, is mostly imaginary.
It all comes down to this- I will not turn my guns on the populace to further unconstitutional laws or prop up tin dictators, at any level of government. Period.
A man will have already identified patriotic duties, resolved the moral issues, made these decisions, had 'the talk' with his OIC and accepted the consequences, whether they lie in the present or in the future. His membership in a group like Oath Keepers will change nothing, other than to give public notice of that articulated in the paragraph above.
To the Chicken Liittles who fear such a group, there is nothing I can say to ease your fears. Either grab a rudder & steer or be prepared to ride the ship into the rocks. The ship of state proceeds toward its inevitable fate, with or without you.
ADB- whether we agree or not, I LOL'ed at the line about Martian mind control devices...obviously, you haven't seen the bulletin
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
MedicineBow said:
The right to keep and eat bananas shall not be infringed!
Sarge said:
I think you have it wrong Sarge. The chicken littles are those in sympathy with the Oath Keepers to wit:
Sarge said:
I have no fear of such a fate and you shouldn't either.
I don't think it is chicken little. There is a decidedly statist agenda in play with this administration. I would never be a part of any organization that would espouse violence, insurrection or illegality. While I have my misgivings about the agenda of the current administration I take my oath to enforce the laws and defend the Constitution fervently
However, I have great faith in America to right the pendulum with the ballot box.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
We seem to be wandering into current politics and views of the administration. Not really the charge of L and CR. So, can we keep away from that? Or we will start a debate about the validity of wacky claims from the fringes of the left and right - and then a closure.
Bingo.
I am retired Army. If I were on active duty and was asked to sign their "oath" someone would get a good old fashioned cursing. These guys fail to realize that if their guns are ever taken they will be taken by the cop that they work out with at the gym and that nice deputy who lives across the street.
There have been a dramatic resurgence of far out groups in just the past year. On some sites there are people calling for armed rebellion. Threats against the POTUS are up 400 percent in one year.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts950
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
Wagonman said:
I think it is. Regardless of the leanings of any administration left or right I think the state of affairs for civil rights and in particular gun rights is pretty good in the US of A. Not perfect but we are getting there.
Groups like Oath Keepers don't help us because they say you can't work within the system to fix the problems. I don't disagree that states like CA who pass these absurd gun control bills are silly, but I believe a lot of those problems can be fixed by our system which is the best in the world.
Oath Keepers are telling you these issues can't be addressed unless you disobey orders or worse. BTW, fear exploits people it never helps them.
Wagonman said:
Yeah, so what? There are checks and balances to keep them from just doing whatever they want isn't there? See healthcare. Even with clear majorities they still have to deal with the opposition. If they overplay their hand, then they are out in 2010 or 2012. What they want to do and what they can do are two very different things.
Wagonman said:
Me too. But we don't need Oath Keepers to do that. Just participation in the process.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
OuTcAsT said:
And as a guy who served under such an oath in the military for 25 years I would be very insulted by such a "reminder". These professionals know what their oath is and if they break the oath it will be because of their willful misconduct and no "reminder" will otherwise inhibit them.
That would be like someone comng up to me before a deployment saying "Please remember the Law of War and don't intentionally shoot any innocent civilians." That would really tick me off.
By the fact that these kooky Oath Keepers are even posing these kooky orders we won't obey they are introducing a problem into the dialog that isn't even there. Sort of like the "When did you stop beating your wife?".
Blockades and concentration camps! What a bunch of hooey!!!!
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Exactly. Many of the far outers get all their news from the World Net Daily. WND is the home of the "oathkeepers" and the "birthers." Rense has a detailed list of the "concentration camps" in the US. Is there a camp in your state just waiting for you? According to some of the far outers FEMA is in charge of the "concentration camps."
All it would take is one incident by a few nutcases to turn the US population against all gun owners. I am more concerned about a serious incident by one of these wacky groups than I am about an attack by al Queda. It has become fashionable for folks to listen to the railings of G. Gordon Liddy, convicted Watergate felon. Liddy bragged that he had planned to murder columnist Jack Anderson.
http://www.wnd.com/
http://www.rense.com/general17/statebystate.htm
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I knew there was something about it that bugged me, and you put the finger on it. The whole idea of this is a bit condescending towards those who took such oaths in good faith the first time.
Getting into TEOWASTF stuff here, but if "they" come to take our guns, "they" aren't going to be the cops and soldiers we know. The cops and soldiers we know are American citizens who already took these oaths. Every one I've met took their commitment seriously.
If things were to turn into Airstrip One and such orders were given, these men would not follow them. Oaths aside, they're got families and communities to consider.
So, what force would be left for the government to enforce tyrannical laws? Perhaps a few ill-intenioned mercenaries, but there aren't enough sociopaths to man that sort of army very well.
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Thanks, mods for keeping this thread open. It is interesting to see some honest, passionate debate going on from both sides of the issue. I will ask both sides of the argument one fundamental question; Have we not seen the erosion of our fundamental rights as citizens of the US over the past decade? How soon will we see this erode into the loss of our RKBA? I am aiming to keep this thread focused on the primary issue as far as this forum is concerned. To those of you who have vehemently smeared the organization mentioned, I would suggest you seriously study your history. Concentrate on the writings of Jefferson as he best represents the intentions and desires of the founding fathers who sought to create a government that stood for the people. To think that such things as mentioned in the 10 points of Oath Keepers cannot happen here is at best naive and contains a certain element of arrogance, as though the US is somehow immune from human nature that has reared its head throughout history.
To those otherwise disposed, I would urge you to work within the system to elect those who best represent the views you wish expressed. I will admit with all candor that the government that exists today has strayed far from the original intent of the founding fathers. This cannot be laid completely at the feet of any one political party, and all must accept part of the blame that has led us here to this point. I also urge you not to be swayed by emotion and unsubstiantiated rumor, but to strive for the truth, and to use that as the basis of your reasoning.
I would urge all to refrain from needless name-calling and to focus on the issues at hand. Our great country is at a crossroad. It should be with the greatest sobriety and self searching that we arrive at the direction which we take from this moment forward.
In closing I will say that the RKBA is the greatest right we have in this country, as it underpins every other freedom we have. It is, to paraphrase Jefferson, the ultimate of all checks and balances written within the framework of the Constitution. It is not to be used lightly. I will remind you all that the ultimate price of freedom is paid in blood, and always will be.
To those otherwise disposed, I would urge you to work within the system to elect those who best represent the views you wish expressed. I will admit with all candor that the government that exists today has strayed far from the original intent of the founding fathers. This cannot be laid completely at the feet of any one political party, and all must accept part of the blame that has led us here to this point. I also urge you not to be swayed by emotion and unsubstiantiated rumor, but to strive for the truth, and to use that as the basis of your reasoning.
I would urge all to refrain from needless name-calling and to focus on the issues at hand. Our great country is at a crossroad. It should be with the greatest sobriety and self searching that we arrive at the direction which we take from this moment forward.
In closing I will say that the RKBA is the greatest right we have in this country, as it underpins every other freedom we have. It is, to paraphrase Jefferson, the ultimate of all checks and balances written within the framework of the Constitution. It is not to be used lightly. I will remind you all that the ultimate price of freedom is paid in blood, and always will be.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
A Couple of Observations
As far as civil liberties go we are freer today than in any time in our history. Problem is, many folk on TFL can't see past the second amendment. Even though today we have regained many 2A rights lost in the preceding century like CCW and Heller which was the first case in our entire history that gave us the individual RKBA. Sorry, but if I had to trade the good 'ole days of Jim Crow and corrupt political machines like Tammany Hall in order to be able to buy machine guns through the mail. I'd give up the machine guns!
I am very familiar with history and have read much from Thomas Jefferson. I see nothing in his writings that would give credence to an organization like the Oath Keepers. What specific things are you talking about that the government has done or is doing that threatens our freedoms? Where is this oppression?
Lots of things can happen but in 200 years nothing like what the Oath Keepers fear has happened. I think paranoia and fearmongering may be a worse offense than naivete and arrogance. People who are paranoid and afraid can sometimes do really bad things.
Of what? We are always at a crossroad. What are we faced with now? Please give specifics and not something banal like "freedom or tyranny".
ALL of the Bill of Rights are the same in importance. The RKBA is NOT the greatest or the only of these rights. All are equally important. Don't believe me? Go to Somalia, they have lots of guns, not much freedom though.
The irony of this all is that these kooky militia type organizations are a greater danger to our liberty and freedom than some liberal politician we don't like. We can vote out the politician, not so the kooky militia.
ronl said:
As far as civil liberties go we are freer today than in any time in our history. Problem is, many folk on TFL can't see past the second amendment. Even though today we have regained many 2A rights lost in the preceding century like CCW and Heller which was the first case in our entire history that gave us the individual RKBA. Sorry, but if I had to trade the good 'ole days of Jim Crow and corrupt political machines like Tammany Hall in order to be able to buy machine guns through the mail. I'd give up the machine guns!
ronl said:
I am very familiar with history and have read much from Thomas Jefferson. I see nothing in his writings that would give credence to an organization like the Oath Keepers. What specific things are you talking about that the government has done or is doing that threatens our freedoms? Where is this oppression?
ronl said:
Lots of things can happen but in 200 years nothing like what the Oath Keepers fear has happened. I think paranoia and fearmongering may be a worse offense than naivete and arrogance. People who are paranoid and afraid can sometimes do really bad things.
ronl said:
Of what? We are always at a crossroad. What are we faced with now? Please give specifics and not something banal like "freedom or tyranny".
ronl said:
ALL of the Bill of Rights are the same in importance. The RKBA is NOT the greatest or the only of these rights. All are equally important. Don't believe me? Go to Somalia, they have lots of guns, not much freedom though.
The irony of this all is that these kooky militia type organizations are a greater danger to our liberty and freedom than some liberal politician we don't like. We can vote out the politician, not so the kooky militia.
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To paraphrase Carmine Lupertazzi, we always think we're at the precipice of an enormous crossroads. Every generation thinks they've got it worse than the last. It's just a weird facet of human nature.
I don't see how lining up and chanting an oath will help that. And therein lies the problem: too many grand gestures and too little doing anything. Instead of waving our fists and shouting slogans, perhaps we should focus on keeping in touch with legislators and converting people to the cause.
The op-ed pages are still open for submissions. How about cancelling that plane ticket to the next tea party and granting the money to a pro-2A (or any civil rights) organization?
In case nobody's noticed, we won a major victory in the judicial branch last year, and we stand to win an even larger one next year. Concealed carry has spread throughout the Union like wildfire, and even with the control of two branches of government, those who would further infringe upon our rights are surprisingly silent.
This is certainly no time to rest on our laurels, but neither is it cause to run around in fatigues screaming "OMG end of the Repulb1c!" That just tends to frighten people on the fence.
And the people on the fence are the ones we need to be reaching.
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I'm curious as to how the association of police & military personnel, with Oath Keepers, will somehow be seen as associated with the 2A movement at large?
And a final point....the 'oath' referred to by this organization is not some swearing of allegiance to a fringe militia organization. It is to an oath already sworn.
I am a little perplexed that such an effort has been painted here as undermining the 2A effort, appearing to associate with lunatics, etc.; and further to discourage people from attending 'tea parties' and other freedom rallies.
But only a little perplexed. The notion of that some folks actually consider themselves competent to read and understand the Constitution, without the oversight of government, just scares the britches off of some folks and there appears to be no known cure for that.
And a final point....the 'oath' referred to by this organization is not some swearing of allegiance to a fringe militia organization. It is to an oath already sworn.
I am a little perplexed that such an effort has been painted here as undermining the 2A effort, appearing to associate with lunatics, etc.; and further to discourage people from attending 'tea parties' and other freedom rallies.
But only a little perplexed. The notion of that some folks actually consider themselves competent to read and understand the Constitution, without the oversight of government, just scares the britches off of some folks and there appears to be no known cure for that.
...and if 10% of those officers had the stones to tell their handlers that Nagin was not God, and could not neuter the Constitution with an administrative order- the NO gun confiscations might never have happened.
All the more important to nurture the concept of individual freedom in their minds BEFORE the event, rather than after.
Thanks Al.
All the more important to nurture the concept of individual freedom in their minds BEFORE the event, rather than after.
Thanks Al.
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