NY pistol permit DENIED!!!

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Alice's Restaurant anyone?

And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench.
Click to expand...
 
Disorderly conduct is a serious crime and I can't say I'm suprised you were denied because of it. Here in WI your background would not have passed with that either. You can appeal as many times as you want but that is on your record for the rest of your life.
In the future think before you break the law.
Click to expand...

The OP can get that crap anywhere, like the NY state government, for example. We are talking about an enumerated, fundamental right on one hand, and less than stellar, but still non-criminal, old, past behavior on the other.

This is like taking away someone's right to free speech, because they insulted someone once. In a couple of years, post incorporation, this kind of abuse will be impossible. The guy isn't even asking to carry the friggin' thing, just own it and have it at the range, for God's sake.

Posts like the quote above disgust me. I wonder what someone with such a mindset is even doing here.
 
Do you have at your dispoal the guidelines they use? It should be available at request. See if disorderly conduct is listed.
 
We would need more information about your background in order to provide better information. You don't say when your disorderly conduct charge was or what it was. This is important because, as you said, some of them are serious. Unlicensed operation may play a part too.

The people who approve your permit don't just read your offenses and check off a scorecard based on the category. If that disorderly conduct charge included threatening someone or was recent, you're going to need a good time period to "mitigate" your behavior, i.e. demonstrate that it won't happen again. That is probably why the lawyer told you to wait a year. The state doesn't want to be held responsible for a handgun owner to get drunk and start waving one around.
 
The point being, I think, that either of these charges could be used to deny a permit.

The licensing law provides that:

"The determination whether to grant the license has been held to be completely within the discretion of the licensing officer. However, the licensing officer must state "specifically and concisely" in writing the reasons for such denial. A denial can be overturned in court only if shown to be "arbitrary and capricious."

and

" A license may be granted to an applicant who is of good moral character, over the age of 21 years, has not been convicted of a "serious offense,""

The licensing officer can easily deny a permit based on those charges and it would NEVER be overturned in court. The idea of "arbitrary and capricious" doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell.... and it's the ONLY hope of a change.
 
It's time to spend the money on a decent lawyer. If no further "surprices" come up, it should be easy to make a case for you. You're gona need to help your lawyer though. Time and patience.
 
Once again.. Dis-con is in no way a serious charge, or conviction for that matter. The obsolete penal law is NOT in effect. Much of it was deemed unconstitutional. So the state legislature had to write a new one. Disorderly conduct involves offences against public order. One man's disorderly conduct is another man's excercizing his right to assemble. One man's disorderly conduct may be another man's excercizing his right to free speech.

Just an anecdotal example. During one our recent mayors so called crime sweeps. The city decided to close a street, for no reason other than there may be people commiting crimes on it. ( a show of force) Along comes a retired member of the service... he decides that he wants to use the street. He drives the same way every day... why should today be different. He insisted on using the street. And was promptly arrested for disorderly conduct. I'm sure there was a lot more conversation... but this is the substance of it. Just to keep it gun related ... They couldnt take away the retired officers carry permit based on a discon arrest.

Two violations against public order were deemed unconstitutional.

Public intoxication
Loitering

I cant quote the case law... But the City of New York was sued an by the NY pistol assn I believe and lost. The NY court of appeals ruled that the City of New York can no longer deny any qualifying person a license to own a handgun for SELF DEFENSE in his home or business. And the license must be issued within a reasonable time frame.

Get a decent lawyer....
 
Glenn Dee said:
Dis-con is in no way a serious charge, or conviction for that matter.
Click to expand...

Unlicensed operation can be. It's at least a misdemeanor and easily qualifies as a "serious offense" in the mind of a judge, particularly one who may be predisposed to denying permits.

The only legal reason for over turning a denial is if the denial is "arbitrary and capricious". No court will find this to be so.

The law reads:

S 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.
1. Eligibility. No license shall be issued or renewed pursuant to this
section except by the licensing officer, and then only after
investigation and finding that all statements in a proper application
for a license are true. No license shall be issued or renewed except for
an applicant (a) twenty-one years of age or older, provided, however,
that where such applicant has been honorably discharged from the United
States army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard, or the
national guard of the state of New York, no such age restriction shall
apply; (b) of good moral character; (c) who has not been convicted
anywhere of a felony or a serious offense;

and then:

Section 3, para B

The licensing officer shall no later than ten business days after the
receipt of such investigation, determine if the applicant has been
previously denied a license, been convicted of a felony, or been
convicted of a serious offense, and either approve or disapprove the
applicant for exemption purposes based upon such determinations.
 
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I understand what your saying Peetza.. My point is that in no way could any section of PL240.20 (Disorderly conduct) be considered a serious offence in the state of NY. There are serious offences within acts against public order, such as 205.30 (resisting arrest), or Public lewedness, or some violations of the PHL (public health law).
 
Glenn Dee said:
My point is that in no way could any section of PL240.20 (Disorderly conduct) be considered a serious offence in the state of NY. There are serious offences within acts against public order, such as 205.30 (resisting arrest), or Public lewedness, or some violations of the PHL (public health law).
Click to expand...

You're right about that, but it's the unlicensed operation that's going to bite him. On an even more basic level than that is the "moral character" clause. The judge can simply say (and has, apparently) that he would not be convicted of those charges if he was of "good moral character". Right or wrong, they can and do. No court in NY is going to find that to be "arbitrary and capricious".
 
Thanks for everyone's info...

The charges on my disposition were a 240.20 for disorderly and 0511 01A for Agg Unlicensed Operation 3. Only other thing on my record is a few speeding tickets (which led to the suspension in the first place). It is possible that the judge is weighing more on the misdemeanor license charge.

I did speak with a lawyer who offered to file the article 78 for me at a cost of $1500.......He felt he may be able to get it approved through that, but if not the next step would cost in the price range of $5000.

To file an article 78 on my own costs a little over $300, but from what I understand the proceedings after that require a lawyer, so doing it on my own may be a waste.

I have a little time to appeal, but this looks like it could turn into a costly venture.
 
Project Camaro said "Disorderly conduct is a serious crime and I can't say I'm suprised you were denied because of it. Here in WI your background would not have passed with that either. You can appeal as many times as you want but that is on your record for the rest of your life.
In the future think before you break the law."

I think you are confused. WI doesn't have any gun permits for him to be denied. We have no CCW permit, we can open carry without a permit, we don't need a permit to purchase or posses either a handgun or rifle and a disorderly conduct offense is a misdemeanor the vast majority of the time which would also not show up on a NICS or WI handgun background check.
 
FWIW, I think you should definitely go with an attorney on this one.

With your record, I doubt you would be granted a pistol purchase permit here in Michigan either. And, any hopes of a CPL would have a much lesser chance of approval IMHO. (This, in a very gun friendly state like Michigan, is what I believe would occur at the first level of approval IMHO. You add in the very anti-gun flavor in New York and it's "lawyer time".)

Now, that said, most violations are given an 3 year period of no criminal activity before they are disregarded in Michigan. Is it that way, or similar, in New York?

Go with what the lawyer tells you IMHO. Your record is not good IMHO as far as getting a license to purchase a pistol. And, that is how it would also be in a gun friendly state like Michigan IMHO.

I mean disorderly conduct and aggravated operation without a license..........not good IMHO. Shows disregard of the law and improper behavior when out in public. So for a few years you might just be out of luck if you get what I mean.

ETA: In Michigan, the operation without a license has to be the second offense though IIRC and disorderly conduct carries a 3 year suspension for a CPL. Are there any statutes that describe what parameters are used in New York for getting a purchase permit?
 
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Are there any statutes that describe what parameters are used in New York for getting a purchase permit?
Click to expand...

You may not mean it exactly like that but in NY it's not a "purchase permit". Once you have the permit you are allowed unlimited purchases, they just have to be added to the permit before you can actually take the gun home from the FFL. Technically, the judge does have to approve each purchase but I have never once heard of a denial of a purchase after a permit has been issued.

In any case, yes, there are parameters in NY for approval of the permit. I posted them on the last page:

The law reads:

S 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.
1. Eligibility. No license shall be issued or renewed pursuant to this
section except by the licensing officer, and then only after
investigation and finding that all statements in a proper application
for a license are true. No license shall be issued or renewed except for an applicant (a) twenty-one years of age or older, provided, however,that where such applicant has been honorably discharged from the United States army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard, or the national guard of the state of New York, no such age restriction shall
apply; (b) of good moral character; (c) who has not been convicted
anywhere of a felony or a serious offense;

and then:

Section 3, para B

The licensing officer shall no later than ten business days after the
receipt of such investigation, determine if the applicant has been
previously denied a license, been convicted of a felony, or been
convicted of a serious offense, and either approve or disapprove the
applicant for exemption purposes based upon such determinations.


Notice that in this particular case the applicant has a double, maybe triple whammy.
1)(In the mind of the judge)Questionable moral character.
2)Conviction of a serious offense.
3)Prior denial for a permit.

The legal definition of "offense" in NY is found in Penal Code 10, Section 1; "Offense means conduct for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment or to a fine is provided by any law of this state or by any law, local law or ordinance of a political subdivision of this state, or by any order, rule or regulation of any governmental instrumentality authorized by law to adopt the same."

Notice that the definition does not specify that "offense" is actually a CRIME.

So, what we have here is a situation wherein the applicant has been a record of TWO "offenses".... "serious" is left up to the judge. The applicant can easily been seen to NOT have "good moral character", again, solely left up to the interpretation of the judge, and the applicant has been previously denied for a permit which is implied by the law to grounds in and of itself for a denial.

Now, the ONLY hope for a reversal by a court of the decision to deny of permit is if the court finds that the denial is "arbitrary and capricious". We can argue all day (or all week on the internet;)) about whether or not the decision is "fair" or "right" but it CERTAINLY is NOT "arbitrary and capricious".
 
Thanks to the gun board for filtering less than desirable people to own/carry a pistol. These are not the people we want representing the gun owning/toting community.:cool:
 
To the original poster, dont ever enlighten anyone on the 'net about your personal run ins with the law.
Unless you want to be viewed as the next Scarface.
Too many super citizens that have never even gotten a ticket will chime in about how you should be jailed for anything that required action from the police.
 
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