Nuclear Power

This stuff is so extremely deadly toxic that it really is an issue.

Except it really is not.
You can touch a fuel rod on the way in with no harm.
On the way out they are a short term hazard, but they go onto a cooling pool and after a few months the hazard has decreased.

Most of the problem is this horrible fear of radiation that has been spread around.
There are particles pasing through you 24 hours a day at sea level, and even more in an aircraft.
 
Nuclear is what is powering my laptop right now. And the entire area.

Funny considering this is a typical "far-left" Prius driving area, but after all I am in a "right" state thank God :)
BTW I'm talking about "Northern" Virginia, and the North Anna and Surry plants ;)
 
Brickeye, to suggest that radioactive waste is no big thing and a non issue, and then "back up" your argument by saying we all get exposed to cosmic rays is, well laughable. I get x-rayed and fly now and then also, but I don't want to live anywhere near Chernobyl. In fact, the entire town near it is abandoned.
 
Brickeye, to suggest that radioactive waste is no big thing and a non issue, and then "back up" your argument by saying we all get exposed to cosmic rays is, well laughable. I get x-rayed and fly now and then also, but I don't want to live anywhere near Chernobyl. In fact, the entire town near it is abandoned.

Mostly abandoned. There are more than a few who wanted to stay in their homes and did.

For what it's worth, the area around Chernobyl is now considered a prime example of what post-man Earth would be like. Wildlife is flourishing after an initial die off. Man's interference on a daily basis was worse than the contamination.

And using Chernobyl is a bad example itself. Chernobyl is the result of extreme negligence on the part of the Soviet gov't and the morons at the plant. There are plenty of industrial accidents with long-reaching consequences (such as Union Carbide's foulup in India) to show that making solar cells (a toxic process), damming rivers (said dams having collapsed) or making windmills or geothermal equipment (contamination from various factories) is exceedingly dangerous. Well, if there is negligence, it is. With nukes, there tends to be major oversight as minor violations cost big dollars (i.e. $50,000 for a fire door left open), and those few violations which get ignored or covered up cause major problems (i.e. shutting down a plant because an inspection isn't conducted properly).

The nuclear industry is like the firearms industry in that it is regulated to an incredibly high level, yet no one understands just how high that level is.
 
Couldn't we just drop it in a Volcano rather then shoot it at the sun ???

Dropping it into a subduction zone so it'll be carried deep for a few hundred millenia has been proposed but not pursued as there were concerns about the potential for the canisters breaking open on the descent or afterwards.
 
I get x-rayed and fly now and then also, but I don't want to live anywhere near Chernobyl. In fact, the entire town near it is abandoned.

The 4 isotopes of concern around Chernobyl have rather short half lives.

Cesium-137 - 30.07 years
Strontium-90 - 28.8 years
Caesium-134 - 2 years.
Iodine-131 - 8 days

The Iodine-131 is long gone as is virtually all of the Caesium-134. (My calculations show that 0.062% of the Caesium-134 released is still around.)

As for the Strontium-90 and Cesium-137, they were absorbed by the plants in the area, thus effectively sealing those materials and preventing its movement.

Here is a map of the area showing the Cesium-137 contaminated areas in 1996.
568px-Chernobyl_radiation_map_1996.svg.png


But remember, we are talking about a material that has a half life of only 30 years, so the amount of Cesium-137 has further decreased by 24.5% from 1996 to 2008, (60.2% remaining) meaning that that contamination zone is now significantly smaller. By the year 2050 only 22.87% will remain, by 2100 only 7% will remain, by 2200, less than 1% of the Cesium-137 will remain. Most of the currently contaminated area will be safe long before then.
 
Brickeye, to suggest that radioactive waste is no big thing and a non issue, and then "back up" your argument by saying we all get exposed to cosmic rays is, well laughable. I get x-rayed and fly now and then also, but I don't want to live anywhere near Chernobyl. In fact, the entire town near it is abandoned.

The Soviets were never known for their safe reactor designs or containment systems. We have today very safe designs available, but we are forced to continue operation of old designs, many past their designed lives because we can not replace the power they are producing. Which is better, newer safer plants, or older less safe plants, or blacked out cities. There are no other options because of scalability of other technologies (wind, solar), or lack of resources (oil, gas, except for coal).
 
We have today very safe designs available, but we are forced to continue operation of old designs, many past their designed lives because we can not replace the power they are producing.

It's worth noting that these many of these plants were built years ago, but weren't placed in operation for various reasons (generally involving panic over events at other facilities). As a result, they are relatively new plants even though they have old designs. They are also safe designs as even those from the '70s were overbuilt in the safety area, and were intensely scrutinized before coming online again.
 
Crosshair, begging to differ with you but if you transposed a similar fallout pattern onto Tennessee, supposing a leak at the plant in Chattanooga then dependent on the wind you could be wiping out Knoxville, Huntsville or Atlanta. A thirty year half life is not very long in the geological sense but a lot of us don't have 30 more years left to piddle around in a refugee camp. If the radioactives are sequestered in plants doesn't that mean these same plants are inedible.

Pardon me if I think of the idea of poo pooing the Chernobyl disaster which underlies your well considered and well thought out post has a high level of natural organic nitrogen compounds, macerated partially digested hay and methane. :D
 
Pardon me if I think of the idea of poo pooing the Chernobyl disaster which underlies your well considered and well thought out post has a high level of natural organic nitrogen compounds, macerated partially digested hay and methane.

But the U.S. nuclear power plants and the Soviet built plants are in no way alike from a safety standpoint. It's just not comparable to any U.S. plants. Of the choices possible, I listed them, which do you suggest if you don't want nuclear? Do you like having light and heat?
 
personally if I had a choice between living down wind of a nuclear power plant and a coal burner I'll take the nuke. 'nuff said
 
Nuke Allergy

Three Mile Island and Chernobyl created a media-driven allergy to new nuke plants. As a result we're way behind. As other posters have noted, Soviet reactors were built on the cheap and maintained the same way...Chernobyl would not have happened here. In terms of damage to life and property at Three Mile Island, remember the bumper sticker:

More people died at Chappaquidick than at Three Mile Island.
 
Time, Distance, and Shielding

These are the three cardinal factors to controlling exposure. Used "religiously" in the nuclear industry, and applicable to any and all hazardous materials.

One needs to understand that there is a tremendous difference between material being in an area, and humans being exposed. And differences in the kinds of exposure. The two basic types of exposure are internal and external. ALL exposure from nuclear waste, fallout, etc. is external, until you get it into your body. Some of the nuclear byproducts are particularly hazardous, because our bodies take them up easily. The radioactive iodines are very dangerous, short term, because our bodies actually accept them in preference to regular iodine. ANd once in the body, the entire energy emmission affects tissue. But, as mentioned, the half life of radioisotopes of iodine is measured in days (some in hours), so in 6 months they are effectively gone. Some isotopes are never taken in by the body. Krypton gas is one. Others, like plutonium, if ingested or inhaled will remain in the body for ever. Chelating agents (like Zinc-DPTA) have shown promise, and will remove heavy metals from your system, along with all the other metals, which you need for survival.

We have had more than half a century of people being conditioned to be scared of anything with the word "nuclear" or "atomic" attached to it. From THEM to GODZILLA to THE CHINA SYNDROME movies have used atomic energy to create monsters and disaster. Comic book heroes and villians were created by radiation of one kind or another. We have been trained to fear radiation.

Chernobyl was a disaster, certainly true. But it was deliberate. It was NOT an accident in the regular sense. It was not a "leak". Because of the Soviet system, the engineer in charge was not a nuclear engineer, but an electrical engineer, who deliberately had safety systems disabled and bypassed so that a "test" could be conducted, to determine how long the reactor would continue to generate power, and how much, after a total loss of coollant. Warned by plant operators that this was not a good idea, under the Soviet system of management, his was the authority, his word was boss. Things didn't go exactly as he expected. Perhaps, had he been more familiar with the operation of the reactor, it might have been different. Perhaps, if they had not been in the Soviet Union, he might have been overruled. Doesn't really matter now, except as a footnote in history. It is worth remembering however, that the "accident" at Chernobyl was not simply a design flaw, or a failure of critical valves or safety systems, but a deliberate test, outside the design parameters of the systems, that went horribly wrong. The only thing it has in common with the accident at Three Mile Island is that they both happened at nuclear reactors.

That was a very nice map posted earlier, showing the contamination zones at Chernobyl, but it doesn't really say much on a practical level. The measurements of radioactive (Cesium, etc.) materials are in Curies. Curies is a measurement of the amount of material based on it's activity. One Curie of Cesium is a different mass than one Curie of Plutonium, or one Curie of tritium. A useful number for some applications, but not quite as useful for determining how hazardous to human occupation an area is. For that, dose rate units are more useful. Readings in R /hr or better yet REM/hr give much better and more easily understood information about how hazardous a given area is.

One thing you have to give the Soviets, when they go, they go big. In the long run, it caused more harm to the US nuclear industry (including the defense nuclear industry) through public fear and political action as a result of that fear, than just about anything else the Soviets could have done.
 
Chernobyl was a graphite moderated boiling water reactor.
They screwed it up completely by overriding various controls resulting in the explosion, melt down, and fire.

The US has no graphite moderated reactors in commercial use.
Peach Bottom was graphite but was shut down years ago.

DOE still has a few but they may not be in use any more.

The fear of radiation has reached darn near hysterical levels.

We are constantly bombarded by neutrons generated by cosmic rays, and 'background' radiation from isotopes in the earths crust.

Burning coal spews all sorts of radioactive waste in to the air and leaves behind cinders that have effectively concentrated the isotopes.

The entire thing of 'deadly for millions of years' is pure BS.
Any material with a long half-life has a SLOW rate of decay.
If you had a piece in your bed, and then carried it around in your underwear you might have a problem with exposure.

The SHORT half-life materials can pose a danger if you stay close to them for long enough.
They are rapidly breaking down, but some of them remain harmless at any level if the particles are not ingested since they cannot even penetrate your skin.

The 'can't see it, can’t feel it' problem and the near hysteria about danger among large portions of the population has given ANYTHING ‘nuclear’ a bad name.

The name used now is MRI for Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

The original name was NMRI, Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging.
No ionizing radiation was involved, just aligning the nucleus of the hydrogen atoms using a powerful magnetic field.
But the horrible ‘nuclear’ word scared to many people.
 
Crosshair, begging to differ with you but if you transposed a similar fallout pattern onto Tennessee, supposing a leak at the plant in Chattanooga then dependent on the wind you could be wiping out Knoxville, Huntsville or Atlanta.

If you imposed a map showing the blast radius of a 100 megaton bomb, centered over Sequoyah (the plant in question), you'd see an equal amount of damage. And the detonation of such a device at Sequoyah is about as likely as a Chernobyl style meltdown at the plant (i.e. it's not going to happen) so the point is moot.
 
Of the choices possible, I listed them, which do you suggest if you don't want nuclear? Do you like having light and heat?
Most of the outdoor lighting in America is wasted so yes I could do with 90% less light. See my comments below about my personal alternative.

As I mentioned before I'd prefer geothermal for the big power plants. Suppose you have a ten billion dollar budget for a nuclear steam electric plant.

You spend the first couple of billion dollars installing solar electric panels on every! house in the region and use net metering for peak outputs. (Conceivable cost reduction with large scale buying puts projectable costs for solar electric at less than $5000 per house. Present costs for large scale implementation would be on the order of double that. Present cost for single home solar electric with all the bells and whistles is upwards of $20,000 but amortized over 15 years is well within most homeowner's budgets and this would be my own primary personal alternative should the power company decide to just quit.)

The next couple of billion would go for a pair of geothermal steam electric plants. (A geothermal plant is merely a hole - admittedly a deep hole, but its the same 19th century technology as an oil well - in the ground, a few water pumps and either a steam turbine plant or a heat exchanger plus solvent vapor turbine plant depending on water temperature.)

Then you give back the last five billion in a stockholder dividend and everybody is happy.

Or I suppose you could still have the attitude that since you have a hammer everything must be a nail and go ahead to build another nuclear plant.:rolleyes:
 
Or I suppose you could still have the attitude that since you have a hammer everything must be a nail and go ahead to build another nuclear plant.

No, the attitude is that if someone is not scalable to the levels needed then all the positive thinking in the world about it is not going to make it a viable alternative. It's been pointed out to you by others why that's the case. If the problem *really* is a nail and you want to use a turnip, then it's being serious about the problem. We know that nuclear is scalable to meet all our present needs and more. Real solutions are needed, not wishful thinking.
 
No, the attitude is that if someone is not scalable to the levels needed then all the positive thinking in the world about it is not going to make it a viable alternative.
Presuming you meant something instead of someone?

Apologies if you can't comprehend the given that parallel distributive systems are more robust and failure tolerant than central distribution systems. Huge scale is undesirable because lack of redundancy leads to vulnerability to disruption. (A good current events example is our dependence on a few huge oil tankers and a few huge scale oil refineries with sufficient peak production as long as all are working at 100% capacity.)

Running the entire country on a few dozen nuclear plants sounds good until something happens and some of them have to go offline. It amazes me that seemingly intelligent people would really bet an entire civilization on them.
 
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