NRA: Friend or Loyal Opposition

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GoSlash27, great minds think alike, you beat me to the punch.

Because of negative people, like you, the Anti-gunners are gaining an even greater NUMBER of members while we, the NRA, are barely growing...
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Lemme tell you something. If you are trying to convert somone to your cause, telling them that they are the problem is not going to help. Also, I am not aware of any anti-gun groups that have a membership per se. Do you have any EVIDENCE to back your claim?

The NRA is a white elephant. In order to make progress a new organization is neccesary. And no, I am not endorsing GOA or any other group. I feel an organization without membership dues is feasable in this day and age. An internet based group that has a single united voice that says, "take our guns, loose our vote". No lobbying in the traditional sense of scratching backs and giving bribes, just protect our guns or loose our vote. That is something that just about every gun owner in America can agree to.

Baloney. You obviously haven't done your homework. The NRA does endorse pro-gun democrats; ever heard of John Dingell?
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Pastrami. What is a handful of D's in a sea of R's? Simply because they endorse a few dems does not mean they aren't a front for the GOP. Ever hear of subterfuge?
 
Pastrami. What is a handful of D's in a sea of R's? Simply because they endorse a few dems does not mean they aren't a front for the GOP. Ever hear of subterfuge?
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The NRA endorses pro-gun candidates; if you want them to support democrats just because they're democrats and ignore their position on guns, you've got the wrong organization (the NRA is about guns, remember?). So if its pure subterfuge, show me pro-gun democrats like Dingell that aren't endorsed by the NRA where anti-gun republicans are.
 
The NRA endorses pro-gun candidates; if you want them to support democrats just because they're democrats and ignore their position on guns, you've got the wrong organization. So if its pure subterfuge, show me pro-gun democrats like Dingell that aren't endorsed by the NRA where anti-gun republicans are.
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I can't think of any where a pro-gun Democrat was endorsed over an anti-gun Republican (that would make no sense). However it isn't hard to come up with several examples of pro-gun Republicans who were endorsed exclusively over equally pro-gun Democrats...even pro-gun Democrats that the NRA themselves give high grades to. Which to me reveals an agenda aside from gun rights.
 
For anyone doubting the NRA’s power on our behalf:

http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/siliconvalley/1805Results.html

Note in particular this quote from Feinstein (speaking of the NRA):

Quote:
"I'm a bit numb ... They had the power to turn around at least 60 votes in the Senate. That's amazing to me."
- Senator Feinstein as quoted in the NY Times 3/3/04
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Since then, the gun-liability bill has been passed without the AWB renewal provision.

Anyone wanting more facts can carefully review this thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228378&page=3,

in particular posts #56 and #66.
 
However it isn't hard to come up with several examples of pro-gun Republicans who were endorsed exclusively over equally pro-gun Democrats...even pro-gun Democrats that the NRA themselves give high grades to. Which to me reveals an agenda aside from gun rights.
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If a democrat and republican have equal positions on gun issues, it still makes perfect sense for the NRA to endorse the rupublican over the democrat. The republican party platform is progun, while the democratic party platform calls for greater gun control. Assumiong the two candidates are equal on the issues, supporting the democrat will provide indirect support for the democratic party. In that case, if the democrats take the house or senate the democratic leadership (which usually holds fast to the party platform) can control the agenda of the various house or senate committees which ultimately means control of the legislative agenda for the session. While the endorsement of that one progun democrat may be correct, it can lead to the furtherance of the anti-gun agenda on a wider scale. Thus, in a situation where the democrat and republican are equal on the gun issue, the republican will usually get the endorsement due to the position of the party on the gun issue.
 
If a democrat and republican have equal positions on gun issues, it still makes perfect sense for the NRA to endorse the rupublican over the democrat. The republican party platform is progun, while the democratic party platform calls for greater gun control. Assumiong the two candidates are equal on the issues, supporting the democrat will provide indirect support for the democratic party. In that case, if the democrats take the house or senate the democratic leadership (which usually holds fast to the party platform) can control the agenda of the various house or senate committees which ultimately means control of the legislative agenda for the session. While the endorsement of that one progun democrat may be correct, it can lead to the furtherance of the anti-gun agenda on a wider scale. Thus, in a situation where the democrat and republican are equal on the gun issue, the republican will usually get the endorsement due to the position of the party on the gun issue.
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This is true, and something I understand. My problem is that I feel having a few pro-gun Democrats is all it takes to forestall any drastic gun control on the national scale, especially if their majority is kept to a minimum. This, combined with the fact that I disagree with the Republican platform on pretty much every other issue, is why it makes no sense for me to give one cent to the NRA, regardless of my position on gun control. Lending my support to pro-gun Democrats is much more likely to result in a favorable outcome for me, as a pro-gun liberal.

Summary: Supporting the NRA is a great idea if A) you support the Republican agenda in general or B) stopping gun control is your only priority. Otherwise, it's iffy.
 
Shaggy, you are missing the point here. You say there is not agenda, but you say that if a GOP and DNC with equal gun values were to run then the NRA would back the GOP. I understand that the NRA is going to back the GOP guy on the basis that one of the GOP planks is RKBA. However, with a large number of "moderate" 'crats in the House and Senate right now, wouldn't it be better to court those 'crats rather than pander to the Republicans that are going to vote gun anyway?

As I have said, I don't like the way the NRA works, when it does.
 
What you should say is what 90 million votes could do to gun control. This is what I think the problem is. Of these millions of gun owners, they are too lazy to get off their fat asses and call their Congressman to vote against these anti-gun bills. But no, they have the mentality of buy what you can now and worry about the politicians later. In my opinion, "if you don`t vote like a gun owner, you suck".
I do think these gun organizations are the biggest influence we have now on stopping anti bills from passing. But it mostly lies with the members. YOU HAVE TO CALL YOUR SENATORS.
jkkimberfan, your point on 90 million gun owners would stop gun control. And I do believe if that many would join the NRA, it would also put an end to gun control. Most of these people are taking their gun rights for granted. I wonder what they would do when the day comes when the gov. says turn them all in. The 2nd Amendment is dead. :eek:
 
You can attack the reason behind the belief all you want. It still doesn't change the fact that they believe it. So long as they believe it, it will be politically expedient to support it. " " right back atcha.
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Re-read my post... I said nothing that makes this remark sequiter... :rolleyes:
An internet based group that has a single united voice that says, "take our guns, loose our vote".
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Look at what you just said!
A single united voice?... Hell we, on this forum, have no such united voice...HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK IT COULD BE ORGANIZED AND HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU KEEP THE PROPAGANDISTS AWAY!
OK... you start the damned thing and I will support it with my words, and I will also put my money where my mouth is...
 
rhgunguy says:
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Another "join the NRA or loose your guns" thread? I have but one question for you: Where were they on AWB 1.0? Taking a nap? In the john?

As for me, I am going to buy what guns I can now(waiting for my AR to come in to pay the last $250 on it), using every spare cent I can raise. The NRA will get my money when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
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Where were you when all these gun bills we are currently fighting on for your gun rights. How do you expect to keep that AR if you don`t help some gun organization.
 
Are you suggesting that 50 million pro-gunners aren't voting their guns? Are you suggesting that they would if they only sent the NRA some money first?
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:rolleyes:
This is ridiculous!

What I am saying is that only a very small portion of the American public even bothers to turn out and vote!
I am saying that if 80,000,000 voters can decide what is the so-called will of 300,000,000 Americans... Then 50,000,000 NRA MEMBERS will have one hell of a lot of influence! And even if they fail to go to the polls on election day...their gun rights will be a whole lot safer...
Are you suggesting that 62% of American voters are actually pro-gun, and are just lying about it in the polls?
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This, too, is ridiculous. :rolleyes:

I am saying that about 50% of the actual VOTERS are pro-gun and the other 50% are misguided by anti-gun-bleeding-heart propaganda...from Feinstein's and Kennedy's and Brady's and the sort...
Pardon my bluntness, but something don't compute.
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In view of your, "are you suggesting this or that"...put-words-in-my-mouth remarks, above... I'm not at all surprised that it doesn't compute...for you.

If it is non-sequiter... it can't possibly "compute". :(
...if the NRA would stop exclusively supporting and endorsing Republicans, even over vocally pro-gun Democrats
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"Exclusive" just isn't happening...
And, John Kerry said he was pro-gun... And even you can say that isn't so... :(

The NRA knows who our enemies are...
 
I know my state house rep well and I am sure they are tired of hearing from me. If every gun owner got of their butt and actualy talked to their representives about how they felt on guns there would be no need to be lazy and send money to the NRA to do it for you.

Pointer, we may not have a unified voice on the details, but the important part is that we all like and want to keep our guns. See GoSlash27's sig line. What I said is simply an organization that says we are pro-gun and we vote. No endorsement of canidates, just essentialy political blackmail:we vote our guns, you do the same and we keep electing you. You have said it yourself, power is in numbers. If politicians actualy see the numbers and do the math, that would be the way to stop gun control.
 
Baloney. You obviously haven't done your homework. The NRA does endorse pro-gun democrats; ever heard of John Dingell?
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If they endorsed solely GOP canidates they would would be seen by a great many as a front for the GOP. By endorsing a DFL here and there they can maintain the illusion of being bi-partisan while still being GOP at it's source. And most people have took the bait-hook, line and sinker
 
rhgunguy, that`s good. Let them get tired of hearing from you. Then they will remember your name and vote against these anti-gun bills. :D
 
If they endorsed solely GOP canidates they would would be seen by a great many as a front for the GOP. By endorsing a DFL here and there they can maintain the illusion of being bi-partisan while still being GOP at it's source. And most people have took the bait-hook, line and sinker
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So again I ask you to show me where the NRA has endorsed an anti-gun republican over a pro-gun democrat. Cite specific examples.

And FWIW, I have to wonder why you'd have such a problem even if the NRA was a front for the republican party. With a sig line like yours ("I tried to see it from a Democrat's point of view. But no matter how hard I tried. I just could not get my head that far up my a**") you certainly don't appear to have much respect for the democrat party.
 
If they endorsed solely GOP canidates they would would be seen by a great many as a front for the GOP. By endorsing a DFL here and there they can maintain the illusion of being bi-partisan while still being GOP at it's source. And most people have took the bait-hook, line and sinker
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If they don't endorse any Democrats, they're a front; if they do, they're still a front ?

Doesn't matter what they do, does it, your mind is made up.
 
Doesn't matter what they do, does it, your mind is made up.
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Maybe, but after reading one of his prior threads where he rants about the NRA being ineffective he (Shotgun Minister) stated the following...

If I was in such a postion finacialy the NRA could keep there benefits and I'd just donate without a membership. The benefits of membership are very little. But as it's sits I can't afford anything.
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(see post #89 at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228378&page=4)

Oh really now. So Shotgun Minister, even if the NRA was a front for the republican party, you'd still support it?
 
Blah blah blah

If just half of the lazy, cheap, excuse making gun owners would simply join the NRA and keep it renewed each year, all gun control would be gone in a few years, every state would have Alaska style gun laws, peroid. Because 1/2 of 90 million equals 45 million NRA members, with this much political clout and votes behind the NRA DC lobby, no politician could say no to the NRA. No matter what you think of the NRA, this is fact and it really is this simple. :eek:
 
So again I ask you to show me where the NRA has endorsed an anti-gun republican over a pro-gun democrat. Cite specific examples.
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This is, again, a stupid thing to ask for. Nobody is arguing that gun rights aren't on the agenda for the NRA, in which case they'd never endorse an anti-gun candidate over a pro-gun candidate, regardless of party. Period.

However, there are again plenty of examples of vocally pro-gun Democrat candidates, who have received high marks from the NRA, being snubbed in favor of (admittedly also pro-gun) Republican candidates.

It has been explained why this would make sense for a pro-gun organization. However, I think I explained pretty clearly why this doesn't do much good for somebody whose only priority isn't gun control...depending, of course, on what their opinion is of the rest of the Republican platform.

The NRA is a decidedly pro-gun organization who, through their policies, also ends up becoming an arm of the GOP.
 
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