Not enough rounds, double standard?

I have no problem with the recoil at all. The only time I did once was when I didn't get a solid grip and it gave my little hand an ouch. If I grip it correctly, it's nothing.

A funny thing, I've mentioned before. I told a guy that I shoot a 1911. He said that he once shot one in the army and it damn near tore his arm off. I looked at my hand and said that I shoot about 100 a match - and still have my hand.
 
Aguila Blanca, thanks for the heads up! That's pretty cool nonetheless.

As long as it lasts, I'm good!

Glenn E. Meyer, that's just funny. How the heck would it "damn near tear his arm off"?!

As for grip + Recoil, I heard that! So it'll probably be better feeling in that department vs my 1911PD. If even just a pinch.

That bobtail really makes the grip so much nicer! I feel a much firmer grip.

God, I can't wait to shoot this thing!
 
My Kimber Ultra Carry conceals as well as a shield or Glock 43 gor me, and at 25 oz its not too heavy. Shoots about on par with tiny 9mms in my hands, holds a similar number of rounds and is a .45.

Works for me.
 
So, is there something I'm missing here?

Size.

The 1911 holds 7 or 8 +1 depending. The much smaller, about 3/4 lb lighter Ruger is 10+1 and will take 17+1 magazines. I like Glock as well as anyone else but they ain't the only game in town. If you like a safety and a lighter trigger here ya go! The safety works just like the 1911 and the triggers are fairly comparable.

9mm vs 45. I've heard all the gun shop and internet hyperbole, but have yet to find any concrete evidence that says anything other that when using comparable ammo the end results are virtually the same.

 
I think a 5 or 6 shot revolver will cover you in most situations.. I said most.
If you start stacking the attackers (group) you better be a really good shot.. and fast to boot.
Even if your attackers are unarmed 3on1 is not a good place to be.

Im a big fan of 9mm.. I think it's perhaps the best OVERALL handgun caliber out there.
That said I'll readily concede that 45 will get you further along on a shot by shot basis.
So if you wanna carry a 1911, more power to ya.

First rule of a gun fight.. bring a gun.

That said I know I feel best when I have my Taurus 99 with me 18+1 & 1 spare mag (37round).. If I loose a fight it's probably not because I ran out of ammo.

P.S If I had room on the belt I'd add a 2nd mag anyway :)
 
Constantine, just as an FYI if it hasn't been mentioned yet, the 1911 was designed with a seven round mag, not an eight.
 
The shear excitement of a violent fight, with or without guns, tends to make you make mistakes, as in carrying Monday guns, on Wednesday, etc.

So my solution in the carry pistol department, is simple. Same Gun, same place, always. And set it up for gun fighting, if you never get into a gun fight?
Good for you. Good for me.

My carry for the last few years, a Glock 19 4th Gen. Prior to that, a Gen 3 Glock 19. The Gen 4 has a wee bit smaller grip, and the grip is a non slip feel.

My set up, TruGlo night sights. Extended slide lock, Glock factory made. 4.5 lb trigger. Snip the bottom off the mag release, dug into my second finger.
Flush fit butt plug, makes for smoother mag change.
Kydex holster, OTB frequent flier belt. Spare G17 mag. Full of NATO 124g hard ball. The 16 in the pistol, 147g Ranger T.

At 81 YOA, this constant companion, sits in place, never feel it. I feel like thousands of other pistol carrying people, the Glock 19 is the perfect happy medium.
 
@Brit, I agree the fewer different guns you carry the better.

Constantine, just as an FYI if it hasn't been mentioned yet, the 1911 was designed with a seven round mag, not an eight.
Originally 7, although there are some 8 round flush fit mags.
Mec-gar makes some.. although I think they cheat a bit with "flush fit" I think the floor plate is slightly larger to help accommodate that 8th round.. probably a redesigned follower also.

https://mec-gar.com/search?category:make=4&category:model=80&category:caliber=50
 
... Capacity is probably a determining issue for many when making a purchasing decision, but it's not really a factor in determining obsolescence....

I like the well-reasoned, careful thoughts expressed in JohnKSa's post, and I wanted to quote a specific part of it for its simplicity. ;)

I fully agree.

While I've long been a 1911 owner & shooter (and became a Colt Model O Pistol armorer before I retired), there are other semiauto pistols designs which require less owner/user training and skills, and offer more ammunition capacity and lighter weight, all of which can be important considerations for many folks.

The trigger of the 1911 style pistol is among the simplest, mechanically. The grip angle is conducive to good recoil management, and the heft of a 5" model can provide a balance that is arguably among the best to be experienced.

The reach of the trigger face, the shape of the MSH (mainspring housing), and the style of the grip safety have been revised over the years to suit the needs and preferences of different folks.

Probably the most annoying potential for feeding issues exists with the magazine. It's not helped by how the "blueprints" used by all the different people making the 1911, in modern form, have been described as being something less than consistent.

Not being one of the "plug 'n play" pistols - meaning it's not a drop-in parts gun - can make it a more difficult pistol to maintain and repair if it's going to be run long and hard. It requires more owner/user familiarity and knowledge for user-level maintenance, and armorer/gunsmith support for repair (for fitting some parts).

I really like my 1911's (3 1/2", 4 1/4" & 5" models), and the last new ones I bought, both in '05 (Colt XSE Gov & SW1911SC 5"), have been excellent "working" pistols. Reliable with an assortment of commonly used JHP duty loads, and the brands of magazines I prefer to use.

That said, I've often defaulted to carrying shorter and/or lighter .45's, meaning my M&P 45 (4 1/2"/10rds), CS45 (3 1/4") & original 4513TSW (3 3/4"), both of which use different 6rd mags.

My last issued .45 duty weapon was a 4513TSW (7rd mag version), which I much preferred for carrying 10-18 hours at a time in my plainclothes assignment, compared to the issued all stainless steel 4566TSW, which only held one more round in the mag, weighed a lot more and only offered a half inch longer barrel.

If I were going to do it all again, I'd probably opt for either a M&P 45c or a Shield 45, or even a G36, and call it a day.

Having started my LE career by carrying 6-rd revolvers, and carrying a well-worn Colt Combat Commander off-duty (with proven 7rd mags), I'm not exactly a capacity enthusiast. If my off-duty (and now retirement) weapons held 5-8rds, I was happy, and if they could hold 9-10rds, I considered it icing on the cake. (The only hi-cap pistol I still own uses 12rd mags.)

I don't see a "double standard" to exist in today's large and small semiauto pistols, so much as there being an increasing variety of options for someone to consider when choosing a defensive handgun, allowing them to put the emphasis where they feel it belongs, for their needs.

FWIW, I've seen a respectable number of longtime .45 enthusiasts (including a number of LE firearms instructors, current and retired) slowly shift their preferences. For "duty" (meaning uniform), it's meant changing from carrying 10+ rounds of .45 to 17+ rounds of 9mm in full-size pistols ... and for off-duty/retirement it's meant changing from carrying 8-10+ rounds of .45 to 7/8+ rounds of 9mm in much smaller pistols.

At the end of the day, it's all about where someone wants to put their emphasis for carrying (size & weight) ... capacity (what's arguably enough for them?) ... and, of course, caliber (always going to matter to some folks ;) ).
 
Probably the most annoying potential for feeding issues exists with the magazine. It's not helped by how the "blueprints" used by all the different people making the 1911, in modern form, have been described as being something less than consistent.

It is ironic that the popularity of, and demand for 1911s is what has led to the decline in its reputation for reliability.

Not being one of the "plug 'n play" pistols - meaning it's not a drop-in parts gun - can make it a more difficult pistol to maintain and repair if it's going to be run long and hard.

It used to be a "plug & play" pistol.

It requires more owner/user familiarity and knowledge for user-level maintenance, and armorer/gunsmith support for repair (for fitting some parts).

Again, because the 1911 became a victim of its own success.

there are other semiauto pistols designs which require less owner/user training and skills, and offer more ammunition capacity and lighter weight, all of which can be important considerations for many folks.

Not sure how much less "user training and skills" you are referring to. I'm not going to argue that more modern designs often have features & advantages the 1911 does not. I will point out that virtually every one of the modern designs had 50 YEARS or more of being able to see what they 1911 does and does not do well, in every environment on earth.

The amazing thing to me is that today's pistols are NOT a quantum leap better than the 1911, only somewhat better in some areas, and arguably not better in others.

Back before everybody and their uncle Max made 1911 pattern guns, tweaking and "improving" the specs on their parts, GI and commercial Colts WERE "plug & play" guns, meaning no parts fitting was required.

I was MOS 45B20 Small Arms Repairman, back when the 1911A1 was the issue pistol. At my level of maint. I could do everything short of repairing the frame or refinishing the gun. You could bet your paycheck (or your life) that you could grab any 1911A1 from an arms rack, pull the safety, (or any other part), replace it with a part from the parts bin, or from any other gun in the rack, and it would pass its function checks and work.

With all the different makers and parts makers today, that simply isn't the case anymore.

Reputations are funny things, both good and bad, the tales grow in the telling, and over time almost always reach a point where they are no longer accurate representations of the actual facts.

A lot of marketing and sales depend heavily on what "everyone knows" and not on actual fact.

The .45 has a reputation for being uber reliable, working flawlessly in all conditions, using GI Ball ammo. It's NOT true, but its the reputation, today.
Ready combat histories and you can find many reports of 1911s jamming.

The 1911 got its reputation not because it was 100% reliable (NOTHING IS!), but because it was better than the other guns in use at the time. And the tale grew in the telling...

I'm of an age to remember the gun magazine discussions (aka arguments) about the superiority of the semi auto .45 over the revolver, because it held a couple more rounds (7+1). And the arguments of the 9mm over the .45, because it held a couple more rounds, and only ONE gun, the Browning HiPower, held more (13+1). I remember when S&W came out with the model 59, a double stack model 39, holding 15+1.

S&W sold a fair number of them, but capacity alone didn't set the world on fire sales wise. Not in those days, anyway.

Large, onboard ammo reserves are comforting. Really nice to have in those ultra rare instances when the ammo is actually needed. Very useful for spray and pray shooting, providing your own cover fire, and those who shoot to slide lock, either due to doctrine or default.

My opinion is that for civilian self defense, the idea of needing to carry large amounts of ammo, is being oversold.

I do see a double standard in those who claim the 1911 is "obsolete" due to its round capacity, and then carry something with the same capacity in a smaller gun. When pressed on the issue, it becomes "obsolete due to round capacity, for its size".

But they are not carrying the full size hi-cap pistols, either, they are carrying compacts. Since they aren't carrying full size guns, seems to me, their arguments about the low capacity of a full size 1911 is moot.

I know time (and tech) marches on, and someday, the 1911 will be as obsolete as the muzzle loader is today. But that day, is not this day!
 
Originally 7, although there are some 8 round flush fit mags.
Mec-gar makes some.. although I think they cheat a bit with "flush fit" I think the floor plate is slightly larger to help accommodate that 8th round.. probably a redesigned follower also.

Certainly but as I say and as you agree, it was designed as a seven round.

Constantine's original post showed some confusion over that: "obsolete because they only hold eight rounds". They can hold eight, similar to how my car can make 500 hp. Now, you or I could make extended 1911 mags,sure. Ten rounds? Why not. But the 1911 wasn't designed with that mag, which is my point to Constantine as an FYI. The potential mag capacity isn't my concern there.
 
The Beretta 92 originally was designed with 15 round mags, you can now get 18 round mags that have very slightly larger floor plates.

from my perspective you're both right.
 
The M1911 obsolete ? I'd say it's more popular than ever. Haven't seen that many copies of the Browning HP or the P-38. The P-38 in 45 ACP seems to have
been announced but never produced, like the Browning HP it was designed as a 9MM, redesigning and retooling to produce in 45 ACP a major operation-like the S&W M645, essentially a new gun.
I would say the 9MM is like the 38 Special, as Bill Jordan put it, the most powerful round the ordinary man-meaning most of us-can expect to master.
Jeff Cooper maintained that the 9MM and other "minor" caliber required "trick"
bullets while the 45 in hardball was about 90% effective for the much desired "one shot stop".
 
SIGSHR said:
The M1911 obsolete ? I'd say it's more popular than ever. Haven't seen that many copies of the Browning HP or the P-38. The P-38 in 45 ACP seems to have been announced but never produced, like the Browning HP it was designed as a 9MM, redesigning and retooling to produce in 45 ACP a major operation-like the S&W M645, essentially a new gun.

More popular than ever? Maybe, but you'd have a hard time proving it. There are so many more .45 semi-auto options available today (starting around 1975...) and the 1911 is now just one of many options.

SIGSHR said:
I would say the 9MM is like the 38 Special, as Bill Jordan put it, the most powerful round the ordinary man-meaning most of us-can expect to master.

Jeff Cooper maintained that the 9MM and other "minor" caliber required "trick" bullets while the 45 in hardball was about 90% effective for the much desired "one shot stop".

Bill Jordan died in 1997, and Jeff Cooper died in 2006, and they've made some big strides in 9mm self-defense ammo performance over the past two decades. Many 9mm SD loads now seem to perform as well as many .45 loads. And, because many more shooters shoot 9mm well than shoot .45 well, starting with 15 or more rounds in the gun seems more prudent than starting with 7 or 8.

As for "one shot stops" -- about the only studies that really tried to address that phenomenon were done by Marshall and Sanow, and the M&S studies were considered both statistically flawed and maybe intentionally corrupted by the commercial self-interest of the authors.

.
 
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44 AMP said:
I know time (and tech) marches on, and someday, the 1911 will be as obsolete as the muzzle loader is today. But that day, is not this day!
But what will replace it? Possibly a Star Trek phaser -- which will be limited to 7 shots by the capacity of its battery (or whatever phasers run on).
 
We visited the Cooper Ranch, when my Son was 18. Col Cooper was in his basement? Lower level. No classes that day. Took us on a tour.

My Son was the same height as Jeff. Way taller than this old guy. He put his arm around my shoulder, and announced "Your Dad is a fine fellow, despite his penchant for that pip squeak calibre, the 9mm"
I was carrying a Glock 17 at the time.

A lot of Jeff Coopers quotes, were tongue in cheek.
 
The Colt 1911 was designed as a combat pistol, the Glock 43 is a pistol designed for the civilian self defense concealed carry market. It is hard to draw direct comparisons given the size and weight trade off.
 
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