Not enough rounds, double standard?

[BigMikey76]

IMHO being scared of carrying 8 rounds is almost as bad as being scared of a pistol with a safety

It's not a matter of being scared, either of lower capacity or of safeties. For me, it's simply a preference based on practical evaluation of the options. Why would I carry a 30+ oz gun that holds 8+1 when I have the option of carrying one that weighs less than 20oz and offers the same capacity. The extension of that logic is that if I can have 15+ rounds in a gun that weighs less fully loaded than the 8+1 gun weighs empty, why wouldn't I choose that option? Now add in that the less than 20 oz single stack and the 20something oz double stack both cost considerably less than the 1911 (depending, of course, on brand), and the choice becomes a no brainier. You can try all you want to make it seem like someone else's choice is based on irrational fear or some other insulting personal flaw, but it won't change the fact that lighter weight mixed with equal or higher capacity and lower cost all adds up to a very practical choice.

 

[HALLAUSTIN]

In semiautos I've carried a commander length sr1911, sold that went to a glock 19. Sold that, now carry a glock 43. When I went to the 19 my thought was that i carry two 1911 magazines in my one glock magazine and save weight by going to a smaller caliber to boot, then add in that plastic is lighter than steel... Caught myself not carrying as much as I'd like to in the warmer months so in came the 6+1 .380 auto g43. Is it the ideal "man stopper"? Not really, but the gun on you is better than the one in your truck/car or safe because it was too large for your outfit that day. Admittedly I miss the glock 19 and in a better holster I probably would have carried it more, but at 16 ounces loaded, its hard to beat the little .380

 

[BigJimP]

I carry the gun i shoot the best ...and the gun i have the most confidence in ... !

For me, that is a Wilson combat, full sized 1911, 5" all stainless in 9mm - its 10+1 capacity and i carryone extra mag.

Compacts & sub compacts do not fit my large hands -- i cannot shoot them well quickly with solid tactical accuracy. If i can't shoot them quickly and accurately ..i won't carry them.

I have other 1911's including an alloy frame 4" ...but the combination of lighter weight and shorter sight plane ...make it a combination that is not my best option. I have retired my wilson CQB 5" all steel in .45acp from carry because some hand issues show i am 0.05 sec to 0.10 sec faster on follow up shots in 9mm than in .45acp

If it were confiscated for evidence ...i'll deal with it -- but it doesn't worry me.

I have shot 1911's for 50 yrs....so i have built up my muscle memory on the 1911. I train weekly, compete weekly with my buddies - with my primary carry gun....so i am confident in the manual of arms...and in my carry guns reliability.

 

[Spats McGee]

It's about ratios for me, at least in part. It's about weight vs. capacity vs. caliber vs. cost.

I love a nice Gov't model 1911, but I find it heavy for carry. I'd be fine with 8+1, if it came in a lighter package. If I'm going to carry that much weight, I want more capacity. I like the slim profile for carry. If I had the budget, I'd own a polymer 1911.

I love the .45 acp, that "big stupid slow bullet," as a buddy of mine likes to say. However, it'd cost me almost twice as much to practice with .45 acp as it does with 9mm. My range time is far too infrequent as it is, so I try to make the most of it when I get to go. I have to stretch my dollars, plain and simple.

It's not that mechanical accuracy are unimportant to me. However, at what I consider to be the most likely self-defense distances, and under likely SD circumstances, I'm not convinced that I could really do much with the extra accuracy that comes with things like a match-grade trigger, or an extra 0.5" of sight radius.

 

[JERRYS.]

much on it lays on the fact of carrying a large gun, it should be loaded with more ammo. a smaller gun with less.... makes no sense to buy a Ford F-250 and put a VW Jetta engine in it.

 

[Dave T]

I carried a Colt 1911 (Government Model on duty and a Commander off duty and as a detective) for most of my LEO career. After retiring I taught civilians self defense and did a qualification course for concealed carry permits for 10 years, still carrying a Commander. Back when I started this you didn't have to specify "alloy frame Commander" as there was no other kind. The "Combat Commander" was introduced along about 1976.

I never felt poorly armed or deprived of adequate ammunition in those days. You see, I had been taught to reload quickly (2-3 sec from last shot to the next) and practiced that regularly.

As to the capacity wars, I remember most of the people who attended the CC qualification classes had 2", 5-shot 38 Special revolvers or 6-shot K-frames and felt that was all they needed. I had to argue with some of them to get them to carry a reload. Even today, long after I shut down my training business, I still run into a lot of people who carry 5 shot revolvers (quite a few are retired LEOs) and feel adequately armed. I don't agree but they sure don't feel they need 15 rounds of 9mm just to defend themselves.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[bn12gg]

Just returned from the club -- 100 rounds thru my Colt Government and Colt Custom -- another 50 rounds (9 mm) thru my High Power. I like obsolete ! Nothing but steel imo.

.02. David.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

:cough, cough:

"49.5 ounces fully loaded. 7/16" wider than a standard 1911"

Might as well carry an FNX45 at that point.

A steel, single stack 1911 weighs 38 to 39 ounces. An alloy Para double stack weighs 29 ounces and has a capacity of 14+1 in .45 ACP, 16+1 in .40 S&W, and 18+1 in 9mm.

A full-size Para P14.45 is nowhere near 7/16" wider than a standard 1911. (That's almost half an inch. C'mon!) More like about .03" wider at the fattest part of the grip, and no difference in the slide.

 

[TRX]

> On top of that, outside of high end customs like Wilson, the
> 1911 can be pretty hit or miss. It's a great gun when you
> have one that works but a lot of people have 1911s that
> just aren't reliable.

If it's a Colt or licensed copy, send it back under warranty. If it's someone else's idea of a 1911, what does that have to do with anything?

Same with knockoffs of the Glock 17 and CZ75. It's not Glock's fault if your S&W clone has problems, or CZ's fault about some Turkish-made imitation.

You're going to blame Rolex because the $10 fake you bought in a flea market was no good?

 

[DubC-Hicks]

A steel, single stack 1911 weighs 38 to 39 ounces. An alloy Para double stack weighs 29 ounces and has a capacity of 14+1 in .45 ACP, 16+1 in .40 S&W, and 18+1 in 9mm.

A full-size Para P14.45 is nowhere near 7/16" wider than a standard 1911. (That's almost half an inch. C'mon!) More like about .03" wider at the fattest part of the grip, and no difference in the slide.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2013/12/para-usa-p14-45-gun-review/2/

The heft of the Para P14-45 is man- sized with the grip frame width and magazine well measuring 7/16ths of an inch wider than a standard M1911A1.

Running very close to the original P14-45, this latest version tips the scales at 40.5 ounces empty, and 49.5 ounces with 15 rounds on board, (14+1)

That's not what this review said. Can't say I've held a P14-45, but I know the double stack Rock Islands are much wider than .03" over a standard 1911.

 

[rodfac]

Great post Nathan, and oh so true. For those of you who feel a 1911 in .45 or .40 is insufficient to your needs, so be it, but many of us, through three major wars and un-numbered back alley confrontations, it's been more than enough.

In my hands, the 1911's grip angle and thickness are as near perfect as I can imagine and only the Browning Hi-Power is better. The original caliber is great even without 'boutique' bullets to help it expand...and even better when it does! And no one who's tried even a mediocre 1911's trigger will honestly prefer a Glock or one of the Glock clones. If it's weight is objectionable, try one of the alloy frame models...their weight vs. recoil ratio is about right for repeat shots with it's heavy caliber...all told, the 1911 is a superb combat weapon but I'll grant, it's not for everyone.

So I'll just suggest that before your handgun shooting days are over (I'm 71 now and closing in on the final chapter), you owe it to yourself to master the old war-horse...you may wonder why you wasted so many years on the wannabees! Go ahead, you know you want to! JMHO but YMMV, Rod

 

[Pond James Pond]

For me it's about more than capacity. For the record I'm not an auto guy. I have an SP-01 and like it very much by for real world applications I prefer revolvers due to a national law requirement for condition 3 carry on semi autos.

But for me, if we consider like for like, a Glock .45 21 carries 13+1 which is pretty impressive, but it's also pretty bulky. The 1911 carries less, but is slimmer.

Other comparisons are perhaps relate to differing calibres.

I mean there is so much more to choosing a carry piece than capacity. If it weren't the case then revolvers would be history.

There is comfort, trigger performance, grip angle o) to mention but 3...

I've shot a 1911 once. I liked everything about that one mag. Would I buy one?
Not right now, but I might. Over here they tend to be comp guns or top-tier status pieces so they cost €$€$€$...

But I carry revolver so 8+1 would not put me off...

 

[BigMikey76]

As to the capacity wars, I remember most of the people who attended the CC qualification classes had 2", 5-shot 38 Special revolvers or 6-shot K-frames and felt that was all they needed. I had to argue with some of them to get them to carry a reload. Even today, long after I shut down my training business, I still run into a lot of people who carry 5 shot revolvers (quite a few are retired LEOs) and feel adequately armed. I don't agree but they sure don't feel they need 15 rounds of 9mm just to defend themselves.

You're arguing a point that no one is really disputing. The point being made here is not that 8+1 isn't enough. It's that if I'm going to carry 8+1, I'm going to go for a less than 20oz gun rather than a 30+ oz gun.

 

[Big Shrek]

Heck, I'd qualify as a full-out heathen...
have a Ballester-Molina 1911-style pistol,
(1911 without the grip safety, roughly) which
can do everything a 1911 needs to do,
but can't see ever CC'ing it, as there are pistols
in my safe that solve CC far better...

And if I wanted to carry a full-size, I'd use the
double-stack Star Megastar 45 (.45acp),
or my double-stack Glock 20-SF (10mm).
Because 14-rds of .45acp is far better than 8!
And 17-rds (extended mags) of 10mm are better than that!!

Although one could argue that anyone could resolve
the whole thing with a Keltec PMR-30, w/30-rds per mag

Or even worse, a 9mm Calico tactical pistol with 100-rd mags!!
(Shown with a 50-rd mag in place.)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

That's not what this review said. Can't say I've held a P14-45, but I know the double stack Rock Islands are much wider than .03" over a standard 1911.

Well, I don't know Dennis Adler personally, but I have corresponded with him and I generally respect his work. So let's just say he was either having a bad day, or engaging in hyperbole.

Unlike you, I have held and fired Para-Ordnance double stacks, so let's put some actual measurements on the table (or screen).

First up, an original Colt Combat Commander, wearing Colt double diamond checkered wood grips:

• @ upper grip screw: 1.32"
• @ mid-grip: 1.27"
• @ lower grip screw: 1.33"

Next, a Para-Ordnance P14.45, wearing OEM Para black plastic grips:

• @ upper grip screw: 1.33"
• @ mid-grip: 1.30"
• @ lower grip screw" 1.34"

So much for 7/16-inch wider. The Para grip frame/magazine well is more squared off, especially toward the front, so it's bit "blockier" than a single stack 1911, but it's not wider. My hands are not especially large, and I find the double stack Paras to be very comfortable.

 

[PlatinumCore16]

Just a note to the OP, your scandium framed 1911, is merely an aluminum alloy. While it does have different properties than aluminum, we are mostly concerned here with the weight and therefore it can just be looked at as aluminum. Not trying to downplay it, just helping to clarify.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have a SW 1911 Sc Commander. I shoot it quite a bit. It's fun at matches. I don't carry it. The reason as mention by others is that for it's size, I prefer the higher capacity 9mm guns. If I did carried it, I wouldn't feel really out of it but the 9 mm is more practical, IMHO.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Until I find a SA semi-auto with a trigger as nice as 1911 triggers, the 1911 will not be obsolete to me.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Just a note to the OP, your scandium framed 1911, is merely an aluminum alloy. While it does have different properties than aluminum, we are mostly concerned here with the weight and therefore it can just be looked at as aluminum. Not trying to downplay it, just helping to clarify.

You know, I heard something about it having a small trace of scandium but that it is mainly just an alloy. Thanks for clarifying!

I have a SW 1911 Sc Commander. I shoot it quite a bit. It's fun at matches. I don't carry it. The reason as mention by others is that for it's size, I prefer the higher capacity 9mm guns. If I did carried it, I wouldn't feel really out of it but the 9 mm is more practical, IMHO.

Nice! How does the recoil feel for you? I don't mind it much in my 1911PD which is also a commander. The 1911SC seems to fit in my hands better, so I feel like it should be even milder that the PD version. But I guess I'll find that out.

I also loved when I took it apart and didn't see that series 80 design in there! This trigger is absolutely amazing.

I'm with you on the high capacity 9mm as well. I carry the Glock 19 Gen 4 with a couple of spare mags on me. Capacity is a heck of an insurance when it comes to multiple attackers, barriers, missed shots, and shots that haven't made contact with vitals (Upper CNS and brain stem). So instead of going in for a reload half way in, you can still do work wth double the chances in doing so.

I just love 1911s on the enthusiast side. SIG Sauer and HK are in between. And Glocks are 100% self-defense. Other than that, they do not appeal to me, but they can't be ignored for simplicity all-around. I just want to be able to carry the 1911 if I feel like it.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Just a note to the OP, your scandium framed 1911, is merely an aluminum alloy. While it does have different properties than aluminum, we are mostly concerned here with the weight and therefore it can just be looked at as aluminum. Not trying to downplay it, just helping to clarify.

You know, I heard something about it having a small trace of scandium but that it is mainly just an alloy. Thanks for clarifying!

It isn't "mainly" an alloy. It is an alloy of aluminum and some other elements mixed in. This is true for ALL aluminum alloy pistols. Nobody uses pure aluminum -- the properties of pure aluminum aren't right for the purpose. In the case of the S&W "Scandium" firearms (both pistols and revolvers), the alloy mixture includes a small amount of Scandium along with other alloying elements. S&W has a patent on the alloying process. The composition is:

0.05% to 0.15% Scandium
7.5% to 8.3% Zinc
1.6% to 2.2% Magnesium
1.6% to 2.0% Copper
0.02% to 0.04% Chromium
0.05% to 0.15% Zirconium
87% to 90% Aluminum

So, despite the fancy name and the radioactive symbol, they are essentially aluminum alloy guns.