Not considered LEO off duty?

Exactly what rights do you think I'm reserving for myself that I contend shouldn't be granted to you? I store my gun in my checked baggage whenever I fly, just like I think you should be required to do under most circumstances.
Frank, you haven't said others shouldn't have your rights. You've only said others aren't qualified to have the rights, without ever (even here, I note) ever including yourself as being undeserving. Even here, you make the point of showing how you make the decision to disarm yourself. Semantic? You bed? Hair splitting? Of course. But over a few hundred posts on a few dozen threads, a pattern emerges among speech patterns. Am I going to go reviewing your posts to pull you some cut and pastes to put up the montage that you're presenting to us? No, I'm not. I'm genuinely sorry that I don't have it ready for you-- I don't want to come across as vague. But I'm just not so invested in this discussion that I'm willing to do the research. Discount my comment, if you wish. (I feel sure my encouragement is unnecessary.) But it's there if you wish to mull it over.

Look, there have been times in which you and I have argued the same side of an issue, with regard to procedures for obtaining probable cause or the validity of reasonable suspicion for stops and frisks. But the thing is, I feel uncomfortable with a whiff of entitlement that I keep getting from your corner.

*

There are a couple of different directions that this thread has gone in. First, Coop de Ville asked the reasonable question about carrying off-duty on the plane. Following the National carry for cops of 206, it's an understandable question. So there's first the question on the facts-- what does the TSA require? That's been answered. Then there's the question of the philosophy-- why should this work? What's the reasoning behind disallowing the police, who have been carrying aboard airlines for most of a century, to carry aboard airlines? Then there's the CCW question, that's gone pretty far afield from the original question.

We've progressed into an indictment of police and their abilty to make shoot-don't-shoot decisions in airplanes. I'm still trying to decide who meets the Frank Drebin criteria of being qualified to carry at will on airplanes. The small department cop "who goes from run to run in Mayberry taking reports" (without a partner or backup, making daily split-second decisions to draw or smile and wave in suspicious circumstances, having to do every aspect of law enforcement in a small department without specialization, and who arguably is far more well-rounded than the highest-paid big department tac team member) doesn't get your vote if he hasn't drawn his gun off the range lately. The funny thing is, he can come to answer calls for service, armed. He can drive home off-duty, armed. He can go on vacation from my state to yours (I don't know where you are but I'm pretty sure you're not a Texan), armed. He just can't get on the airplane with you, armed. Is that not kind of odd to you? Just a little? This guy has the power to make on-view arrests, stop traffic, etc, but can't be trusted to go armed in that place, you're telling me?

Okay. Fine. I'll just let you run with that, Frank. Please expect some of this crowd (and not just LAK) to run with your comments about the questionable qualifications of police in the next Probable Cause issue thread.
 
Frank, you haven't said others shouldn't have your rights. You've only said others aren't qualified to have the rights, without ever (even here, I note) ever including yourself as being undeserving.

Well then just post one instance where I said that although I think off-duty police shouldn't be allowed to carry on the airplane, there should be an exception for me.

I'm still trying to decide who meets the Frank Drebin criteria of being qualified to carry at will on airplanes.

I already answered that. On-duty police who have been vetted as far as the ability to fire a pistol, very accurately, on an airplane, and who have a specific need to carry, Air Marshalls who have done the same, and the cockpit crew. Off-duty cops should not be allowed to carry at will, nor should CCW holders. "Off-duty cops" is far to general a category to say they're all qualified to carry on commercial airliners.

Please expect some of this crowd (and not just LAK) to run with your comments about the questionable qualifications of police in the next Probable Cause issue thread.

Not a problem. If it were OK for cops to be the final word on probable cause, we would have no need for preliminary exams and Walker hearings. "Probable Cause" is looked at on a case-by-case basis after an arrest or seizure is made. I would have absolutely no problem with allowing off-duty cops to carry on airliners under the same circumstances, ie. they're each checked out on a case by case basis after a rigorous criteria is established. NOT merely allowed to carry based on the fact that they were able to get hired by a police department somewhere.
 
Some here think that a good ID is hard to duplicate. I thought so too once upon a time. Last year, I attended a seminar put on by the FBI on identity theft. It was taught, believe it or not, by Frank Abignale. Yep, the real Frank Abignale, who inspired the movie "Catch Me If You Can". For obvious reasons, I won't go into details :D , but anyone even half as sharp as Frank can duplicate damned near anything, and fix it so that the most intense checks will come back clear. Frank is a true genius and an artist, but I suspect there are others in this world that can do the same thing. By the way, if you've never seen "Catch Me If You Can", it's a great flick and a true story!
 
I would say that this is primarily a TSA issue. The airlines might require the letter - but I would find it hard to believe that this was not based on a Federal directive, and that TSA are going to have final say. It has been the government that has stood in the way of pilots arming themselves - not the airlines, that I know of.

And it adds up when you think that mixing up armed street cops of a potential thousand cities not to mention states and counties etc with their annointed sky marshals isn't going to be popular with them.

Unless they actually verify each one via a listed PD telephone number it strikes me as an awfully easy "fake IDs, badges and letterhead paper". If all they do is call the number on the letter - that would be simple to arrange as well.

Personally, I think the old way was best.
 
I am Federally sworn. My Dept. was established by Congress. However, a few years back there was a clause activated that allowed the chief to withold police powers. Technically, I'm good to go in all 50, but I would suffer only internal Dept. discipline for breaking policy.

Point is they won't even let me carry a blade.

How many planes am I gonna crash with my knife?


Best Coop
 
As a private citizen I might ask the airline and the TSA the same question. Nobody can crash or hijack a plane using a knife... not anymore. Every passenger is sitting on a shield against edged weapons and clubs.

Why are you taking this personally? This is what we peons have to deal with every day. I can't even legally carry a balisong down the street, and you think you're being treated unfairly because you can't carry a knife or gun onto a plane? Yes, it's unfair. Welcome to our world.
 
It's not personal. I carried for years before I became a cop.

But as a cop, civilians expect me to perform 24/7 on AND off duty. If I'm to be held to that level of readiness and responsibility then give me the tools I need.

Coop
 
Not considered LEO off duty

How many of the Adam Henry's blessing us with their opinions are cops? If not, go sit in the corner and whine for someone to protect you.
 
918-
Beg your pardon?
Am I to understand that you want this thread limited to Police Only?
Am I to understand you sense that most here are against sworn officers carrying on board?

What did I miss?
Rich
 
LEO off duty

Easy big dog. Point is, if you haven't been there don't offer advice. Kind of like the Pope giving advice on birth control. Too many hot shots buy a gun, attend a school and think they can do the job. Everyone tells the cops how to do the job after watching a couple episodes of their favorite cop show. Do they also watch ER and tell their doctor how to operate? If you haven't got the experience don't offer an opinion. You haven't earned the right.
 
If you mean me-
I stated earlier I am not LEO, and do not have a Military background. I'm a just Southern Civilian with res and non-res pemisson papers to carry concealed.

I also will admit I did not re-new my passport and have not been inside a Airport, much less a airplane since all the TSA...

Now back in a former life, I flew from time to time, I assisted LEOs and LEOs assisted me. Back then I did in fact board a plane at Central Flying Service, with a UC LEO and off to FL we went. Same UC LEO have flown commercial, and HE did board armed, I did not. I forget the arline - I want to say United, one of those that is no longer around, or merged or something.

We flew to Miami. Once there I retreived my carry pc. We did our Business and drove back in a "high dollar sports car". One of the reasons we went in the first place. Seems FL had "better reasons" to keep the BG so he stayed in Miami's graybar motel. We extradited the car.

Numerous times I have run across UC LEO, the rule was they approached me first, I never aknowledged them first - they might be working. This includes the little airlines I used to hop in state in. I would run into these folks, city, county, state and Feds. Back then these LEOs did carry on board. We never had a problem in flight. I never felt in peril because a gun was on board.

I have had some retired LEOs that moved off need to come visit. With a CCW that recips here - and the TSA hassles, they fly in, and I loaned them a CCW to use while here.
 
If you haven't got the experience don't offer an opinion. You haven't earned the right.
918sgt-
Wake Up Call For You:
This happens to be a "Discussion Board".
- In the first place, it's all about opinion and experience.

- In the second, you don't get to control either. I DO.

- In the third, you're a retired officer. Unless LEO's are being appointed for life, that renders you a "non-cop" also. No longer in the "us" category, you have no more right to this discussion than anyone else....IF we were to adopt your standards for "right". If, OTOH, you're just expressing your "opinion", that's fine.

I'd prefer you do it without the "Adam Henry" personal attacks.

OK? OK? OK?
Rich
 
LEO off duty

It's a non-issue. The rules are prescribed and in place for each airline. Play by their rules or don't play.

Now that's how you start an argument or exchange of ideas. I thought I got everyone involved pretty well.

You have a pretty good idea there about the lifetime LEO commission. How about making it irrevocable and having the ability to pass it down through the family. Let's make it good worldwide while were at it.
Sort of like knighthood.

Geez Rich, don't be so sensitive.
 
You have a pretty good idea there about the lifetime LEO commission. How about making it irrevocable and having the ability to pass it down through the family. Let's make it good worldwide while were at it.

Sort of like knighthood.

Geez Rich, don't be so sensitive.

On second thought, it's not worth it.
 
LEO off duty

Richie,

Now you've done it. You've made me feel bad. Aw gee whiz. Maybe someday you will be a REAL cop instead of a semi-talented writer. I really do hope that you continue to be a success with your magazine. Don't presume to tell me that one stops being a cop. It's like homo-sapien. After 30 years you can't give it up or change it. It stays part of you. Simply not working doesn't change that. Until you've had people get out of prison and come after you don't tell me being a cop goes away. Until you've had people stick dynamite up your tailpipe don't tell me it goes away.

Please remove my name and information from your files. I am removing you from my list of sites so I won't be able to read the back stabbing tat follows this post. You folks go ahead and enjoy each other. Tell me Richie, have you also worked in IA? See ya.
 
In the third, you're a retired officer. Unless LEO's are being appointed for life, that renders you a "non-cop" also.

I gotta disagree here, as does the Federal Government. If you dont think so, see HR 218. Once a cop, always a cop, you just cant "undo" it. Perhaps the legal compulsion to act is gone, but the moral one remains.

I cannot say whether I think that TSA or the airlines should allow cops to carry on board. I feel they should offer a training course for those cops who do wish to do so. The Federal Air Marshalls is a great deal, but with so many flights and so few officers, it would make sense to allow off duty cops to fly armed. I would venture to guess that this would increase the number af flights that are armed by several hundred percent.
 
"These efforts of private individuals combined with those of the authorities often accomplish things which the most concentrated and vigorous adminsitration would be unable to achieve.

"I could cite many facts in support of what I am saying, but I prefer to select one only, and that the one I know best.

"In America the means available to the authorities for the discovery of crimes and arrest of criminals are few.

"There is no administrative police force, and passports are unknown. The criminal police in the United States cannot be compared to that of France; the officers of the public prosecutor's office are few, and the initiative in prosecutions is not always theirs... Nevertheless, I doubt whether in any other country crime so seldom escapes punishment.

"The reason is that everyone thinks he has an interest in furnishing proofs of an offense and in arresting the guilty man.

"During my stay in the United States I have seen the inhabitants of a county where a serious crime had been committed spontaneously forming committees with the object of catching the criminal and handing him over to the courts.

"In Europe the criminal is a luckless man fighting to save his head from the authorities; in a sense the population are mere spectators of the struggle. In America he is an enemy of the human race and every human being is against him."
--Tocqueville, 1835
We've degenerated to the point where we're just like Europe was. Only the authorities, whether on-duty, off-duty or retired, have the power to do something about most crimes.

liliysdad, in the interest of equity, how about a training course for citizens who wish to carry on planes?
 
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