not a good hd shell choice?
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TheKlawMan
Moderator
Damn Hawg, That is a beatch of a way to learn about wound channels and stopping power. He is lucky that it was not only bird shot but pretty small bird shot.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Same here, but since finding #1B around here is a little like winning the lotto, I generally opt for 00B, something my SPX patterns very well, and 00 generally places #2 in the HD awards. I would not hesitate to put just about anything including birdshot in my shotgun for HD if it were all I had-that is until I got the proper HD load.
We're lousy with 00B around here though, just wish there were a few places that stocked #1B without having to order.
UnbearablePanda
Moderator
Why not just multi choice your ammunition like all my friends do? He switches out with
1st. Bird
2nd. 04 buck
3rd. 00 buck
4th. slug
5th. slug
That way if the bird doesn't get em', you got buck in your channel, if you dont want to use bird because your mad. Just deload the first shell and get the 2nd. Or you could be just rabbit bashing mad and use a slug. Either way it gives you a chance to decide they're fate.
1st. Bird
2nd. 04 buck
3rd. 00 buck
4th. slug
5th. slug
That way if the bird doesn't get em', you got buck in your channel, if you dont want to use bird because your mad. Just deload the first shell and get the 2nd. Or you could be just rabbit bashing mad and use a slug. Either way it gives you a chance to decide they're fate.
UnbearablePanda
Moderator
Oh yea hawg, Your story is impossible to be correct. Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes. The HCL from the stomach eats the other organs away and starts leaking into the fat. Burning into the bladder and liver causing failure and septic. Getting shot in the stomach is a fatal wound from a shotgun, nevertheless the amount of pellets. Your talking about less than 5 minutes for a ambu, very highly unlikely to happen. Especially since I have a police station/fire station nearby it would take 2 minutes to get here and to get to a hospital with almost no medical supplies inside to prevent HCL. Leaking into the organs, your myth has been busted.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Getting shot in the stomach with any 9mm+ will kill in 15 minutes."
Uhm....
OK, not sure where you came up with that, but I guess someone forgot to tell my neighbor when I was growing up.
He fought in the Pacific in World War II and took a chunk of Japanese shell in the stomach.
He survived several hours without anything other than very basic medical care.
He ended up losing a good portion of his stomach and had a raging peritoneal infection to deal with, but he's living proof (well, he was, he died some years ago) that being shot in the stomach isn't a 15-minute death sentence.
Medical statistics from the Civil War indicate that roughly 11% of soldiers who were hit in the stomach survived (much better than abdominal wounds, which apparently were 98% fatal).
Uhm....
OK, not sure where you came up with that, but I guess someone forgot to tell my neighbor when I was growing up.
He fought in the Pacific in World War II and took a chunk of Japanese shell in the stomach.
He survived several hours without anything other than very basic medical care.
He ended up losing a good portion of his stomach and had a raging peritoneal infection to deal with, but he's living proof (well, he was, he died some years ago) that being shot in the stomach isn't a 15-minute death sentence.
Medical statistics from the Civil War indicate that roughly 11% of soldiers who were hit in the stomach survived (much better than abdominal wounds, which apparently were 98% fatal).
TheKlawMan
Moderator
Who is talking about a 9mm? Hawg was talking about a load of #6 which is pretty fine bird shot. With any shot energy is dispersed amongst the pellets and the result is less penetration if I understand what others like oneounce are saying. With a 9 mm that energy is moving one single pellet.
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TheKlawMan
Moderator
Mike, I don't know that it is reasonable to compare survival rates to Civil War rates. Medical care has improved a lot since then when I have heard the soliders were more terrified of the hospital than anything else.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I used the Civil War survival rates for two reasons. First they were the ones i could lay my hands on quickly with a google.
Second, i think its e en more impressive that 11% of the men hit in the stomach survived the rather primitive medical care o f tjat time.
That means one thing to me - that if stomach wounds were survivable then they are even more survivable now.
Second, i think its e en more impressive that 11% of the men hit in the stomach survived the rather primitive medical care o f tjat time.
That means one thing to me - that if stomach wounds were survivable then they are even more survivable now.
TheKlawMan
Moderator
All I know about myth busting Unbearable Panda is that as early as Dunkirk the survivability rate for abdominal injuries was 60% and recently is well over 80%.
UnbearablePanda
Moderator
Huge difference in training for killing. Vs a home defense action. A normal person who has not trained in the military has a different mind set. Same with the man who killed 40 people with a shovel with a fatal wound and survived. Most of that is possible, yet i'm trying to point out the fact that with that many shots in a "small room" point blank. Your going to bleed, he stated "friend" not a military personell. Meaning that he probably went into shock. I highly doubt that within at least 40 minutes with that wound he could have survived. Let alone get close enough and fight him off than take the shotgun and beat him with it. If a person is going to put a gun to you and shoot. He probably is going to try and kill you with it. That proving that his story is inconceivable. That 9mm was just off some other forum anyway. It shows in the link that a #6 bird will make a 6inch cavity in the body at 10 feet. http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf Look at the ballistics of a 10 feet distance. His "small room" common is probably going to be around 5-8 Let alone 10. You could try it out and test what he said. Get shot in the chest at 8 feet with #6 bird and see if you can run forward beat the crap out of a guy who probably woulda beat the hell out of you. Than call an ambulance and wait for help with a 6inch cavity.
This makes no sense. If he survived, it couldn't have been a fatal wound. Just sayin'....
No, it's not inconceivable. You clearly consider it unlikely, but that does not make it impossible. It just means that you ain't buying it. And being skeptical doesn't mean (at least in my neck of the woods) that you get to call somebody else a liar - it only means that you are skeptical.
Maybe I'm missing something, because that link is showing buckshot and slug tests and not birdshot. Having said that, I have no doubt that #6 birdshot will make a six inch cavity in a bucket of jello at contact distance. I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever being attacked by my kid's dessert or a giant amoeba.
Truth be told, #6 birdshot does a pretty good job of penetrating 3"-4" into the bodies of small upland game birds with rib cages so lighly constructed that you can dang near crush them in your hand. It's a little light for rabbit or squirrel unless ranges are pretty short, it's OK for headshots/neck shots on turkey, but it's way too light for game as large as a duck or similar waterfowl due to its inability to give adequate penetration even at close range.
That's a clue that it's probably not suited for critters that are an order of magnitude larger than a duck (unless they resemble a bowl of jello).
If I'm being attacked by a human or any critter bigger than a pheasant, then I'll likely choose to use a shotshell load that has been demonstrated in real life to actually penetrate the ribcage and other intermediate barriers to get to the jello inside of said attacker.
YMMV.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Do you have any actual evidence to support any of that?UnbearablePanda said:
Ive never shot a shotgun into ballistics gelatin but I have shot a few hogs between the blinkers with copper plated 5"s while turkey hunting. It killed the snot out of them. I shot one at about 25 feet while he was looking at that camo blob leaning up agains a big swamp chestnut trying to figure out what it was. It took off the top of his head. None of the were high on PCP but I dont think it would have mattered.
I have no doubbt that a load of #4's or larger will kill you at across the room distances without blowing through the walls of you house and killing the neighbors. Anyone who has hunted with a shotgun, has little doubt the effect of small pellets up close. Ive seen a load of number 6's turn a duck inside out at a few yards. While he doent have the mass of a human, I know being hit up close would take the fight out of you, and cause devastating wounds.
FWIW several years ago there was an episode of cops where a homeowner had shot and killed two armed intruders. One was a big fella lying there dead as fried chicken, the other was face down outside. There as a pattern on the wall that was clearly small pellets.
I have no doubbt that a load of #4's or larger will kill you at across the room distances without blowing through the walls of you house and killing the neighbors. Anyone who has hunted with a shotgun, has little doubt the effect of small pellets up close. Ive seen a load of number 6's turn a duck inside out at a few yards. While he doent have the mass of a human, I know being hit up close would take the fight out of you, and cause devastating wounds.
FWIW several years ago there was an episode of cops where a homeowner had shot and killed two armed intruders. One was a big fella lying there dead as fried chicken, the other was face down outside. There as a pattern on the wall that was clearly small pellets.
TheKlawMan
Moderator
LSnSC
I have read enough of your posts to see that you know a bit of what you speak, unlike some of us (like myself) know nothings. A lot of time it is confuses me when people talk about shot sizes, since some overlap. Meaning #4 Buck shot is nothing like #4 Bird Shot. I beleive you were talking about heading a pig with #5 Copper Plated Bird Shot. Since I bought a lot of copper plated home defense amo (copper plated BB's) I did some reading and per Chuck Hawks, I think it was him, copper plated shot pentrates about as well as the next largest pellet.
BTW my primary HD load is Remington Ultimate Home Defense 12 gauge with copper plated BB's. Remington also offers the same stuff with a mixture of #2 and #4 buck shot. As far as I know no one has done a ballistic gellatin test on the BB load so far.
There I go mispeaking again. I said they are copper plated BB's. I don't know where I got that from. The box says they are loaded with heavy density , Tunsten -Bronze-Iron Pellets.
I have read enough of your posts to see that you know a bit of what you speak, unlike some of us (like myself) know nothings. A lot of time it is confuses me when people talk about shot sizes, since some overlap. Meaning #4 Buck shot is nothing like #4 Bird Shot. I beleive you were talking about heading a pig with #5 Copper Plated Bird Shot. Since I bought a lot of copper plated home defense amo (copper plated BB's) I did some reading and per Chuck Hawks, I think it was him, copper plated shot pentrates about as well as the next largest pellet.
BTW my primary HD load is Remington Ultimate Home Defense 12 gauge with copper plated BB's. Remington also offers the same stuff with a mixture of #2 and #4 buck shot. As far as I know no one has done a ballistic gellatin test on the BB load so far.
There I go mispeaking again. I said they are copper plated BB's. I don't know where I got that from. The box says they are loaded with heavy density , Tunsten -Bronze-Iron Pellets.
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