Non-revisited, non-PC Civil War history?

Random musings, flotsam and jetsam, FWIW.

Old Rebel during the last days of the war summed it up, "A rich man's war and a poor man's fight."

A lot of people in Georgia still liked Sherman after the war. It was only when they got two and three generations away from it that the vilification of him took root.

A neat chapter from the Span-Am War book titled "The Little War of Private Post" told of how the government was in a purple sweat that the Southerners would attack the trains carrying Federal troops headed for Tampa, FL. They shuffled the trains so they'd bypass Richmond where they heard a bunch of Rebels were waiting for them. They were waiting for them all right - with lemonade and homemade pies and other goodies. Later on it was conceded that the 1898 war brought the country together again.

It appears the more distant we get from the war, the more the attitudes harden.
 
Sorry you were treated that way, Mr. Irwin. Did you remind them of their "War of Southern Stupidity" by any chance. I've studied the civil war quite a bit and I thought it was a good cause.
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[This message has been edited by laxman (edited September 21, 2000).]
 
Scenario: Wife and I walk into a small restaurant near Cherokee, North Carolina, not too far from the Smokies.

We sit down. Waitress comes over, and greets us. We say hello.

Waitress, demeanor changing: "What can I get you Yankees today?"

Me (wanting to say "A new waitress," but keeping my tongue): "Coffee, etc..."

Few minutes later, waitress comes back with my coffee and my wife's soda.

Waitress: "Here ya go, Yankee."

Me: "Excuse me. I'm not a Yankee. We're from Virginia."

Her: "Oh."

She didn't get a tip.

Now, repeat that scene about a dozen times throughout the entire trip, including one or two that were quite a bit MORE hostile, such as:

Stopped for gas one evening, had to prepay.
Fat-A** behind the counter.

Me: "I'd like to fill up on pump X."

Fat A**: VERY thinly disguised disgust "I suppose I can 'hep a Yankee."

Where's this vaunted "Southern Hospitality" that's supposed to be so evident in Dixie?

Do you only get it if you have a Confederate flag jammed up your butt and portraits of Lee & Jackson tatooed on your butt cheeks?

During my honeymoon neither I nor my wife mentioned the Civil War to ANYONE. Yet we were repeatedly called Yankees (despite the Virginia plates on our car), and the Civil War was REPEATEDLY brought up to us.

I made the decision then and there to NEVER go back South for a vacation.

I'll go to New Mexico.

They don't seem to be living in the past, there.

If you (Southerners in general) want to rehash the civil war, and whine about how great the cause was, and how wronged you were, and how the South is going to rise again, that's fine. That's your right.

But I'm not going to participate, I'm not going to play your sacrificial Yankee, and I'm not going to let you cry on my shoulder.

I'm going to move forward. You can stay stalled in time and continue to lick wounds that you continue to gouge in yourself.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike,
I'm not doubting a word you have written. I'm originally from MD and have been down south countless times and haven't received that kind of treatment. Do you consider yourself culpable in ANY of these run ins? Most southerners aren't rehashing the civil war.... but you can't help but think how nice it would be without this huge federal government breathing down our necks.
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Was I culpable? I don't think so.

I wasn't greeting people with "Hey Redneck!" or "Hey Southern Fried Trash!"

What my wife and I WERE doing, however, was being polite to people we were meeting. But we weren't speaking with a Southern accent, which I guess made us stand out to some people.

I will, however, say that some of the times when I was called a Yankee it was obviously NOT in a pejorative manner, it was just a manner of speaking.

Stopped in at a shop to buy some stuff. Got to chatting with the owner, a simply lovely woman about 85 or so.

But she eventually said "Hey, you're Yankees, right?"

Granted, in her case, she was inquiring, and probably didn't see it as any big thing.

But at one time I'm certain she didn't see it as being any big thing to call an African-American a certain word beginning with the letter N.

Maybe I'm overly touchy about this. Maybe I SHOULD just reply in kind when someone calls me a Yankee. I sort of like that Southern Fried Trash line...

PROSOUTH - Thanks for the invitation. But sorry, no interest. I'll go to the Southwest.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
416 - You're right, my comment was condescending. Sorry.

There are published volumes of documents from the controversies leading up to the war (which I was taught in Oklahoma to call the War Between the States).

A small collection, readily accessible in any bookstore, is Richard Hofstadter, editor, Great Issues in American History, volume II. I'm sure if you typed in Civil War and documents into Amazon or any library catalog you'd find lots of them.

You're smart to read the originals. Read and decide for yourself. Textbooks are like the predigested worms mother birds give their babies.
 
Laxman (I guess I should greet you with either Bogfoot or Southern Fried Trash, but I will NOT bring myself to that level...),

Jesus Christ...

One question.

Why does your map show the capitol being in Montgomery, Alabama?

It was moved to Richmond...

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited September 21, 2000).]
 
Actually, I didn't notice the image. Oh well.
I refuse to revert to name calling (or even name calling in parenthesis). What's the point in that, Mike? Because someone sees something different, you have to disparage them?

[This message has been edited by laxman (edited September 22, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by laxman:
Actually, I didn't notice the image. Oh well.
I refuse to revert to name calling (or even name calling in parenthesis). What's the point in that, Mike? Because someone sees something different, you have to disparage them?

[This message has been edited by laxman (edited September 22, 2000).][/quote]


Actually, you DID revert to name calling, Sir.

"You sure you're not from NY, Yankee?"

Were I black, would you so cavalierly drop the N-bomb on me with a smiley face afterwards?

I think I've made it very clear how I feel about being called a Yankee, and about what I see to be the driving force behind it.

So, I ask, why did you disparage ME?

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Hey Laxman, I just noticed something else about the image...

Shouldn't, after the Confederacy splits off, West Virginia split off from the Confederacy and move back to the Union? :)

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
While on R&R in Sydney in 1970 I strolled into this large Pub, walked up to the bar and ordered a beer. When the girl behind the bar set the beer in front of me she said "excuse me mate....but are you a Yank"? I replied "Mam where I come from them's fightin words...but from your point of view...hell, I guess I am."

My point of this post is.....being called a Yankee is not necessarily derogatory. Some people need to get the chip off their shoulder and relax. ;)
 
Mike,

I know for a fact that the word "Yankee" is, for the most part, not used disparagingly. Its etymology, correct me if I'm wrong, stems from the dutch proper male name Jan, Jankee, meaning respectively John and Little John.

The British refer to Americans (and have for centuries) as Yanks or Yankees with no more animosity than the traditional cousinly rivalry between their country and ours.

The Southerners use the word to mean "a person from up north", without too much fuss about his actual New England provenance.

Sometime there may be a little resentment about the reconstructionist attitude of the "Yankee elite" - and you, as a seemingly very intelligent man, can understand that.

Look at the positively rabid attacks conducted every day by the beltway elite on Southern culture. This infuriates Southerners, and rightfully so. You will never see a Southerner attacking Maine culture or griping about what flag is flying over what building.

Yes, the Civil War was over for over 100 years when you and I were born. But the annoying, petty and intrusive reconstructionist pique of a typically northern self-styled elite is far from dead, as you can see for yourself just by picking any major national paper.

What the South wants now is precisely what it wanted then.

We just want to be let alone.
 
Years back, the Reader's Digest had a snippet titled "The Vanishing American".

Down South, a Yankee is anybody from the North.

In the North, he is anybody from New England.

In New England, he's anybody from Vermont.

In Vermont, he's anybody who eats pie on Sunday.

They had a "Humor in Uniform" bit about some charity drive at a WWII army base. They set up two big donation jars, one labeled
"Northerners", the other "Southerners".

The next day there was a third jar, twice as big as the others, labeled "TEXANS".

[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited September 22, 2000).]
 
Mike,
Why the condescending tone?

I found the pic on a website. You're right about WV. I will delete it since it bothers you so much. Are the flags ok? Spelling?

Yankee....disparaging? Lighten up, Francis. Didn't mean it that way. You have a great weekend. Cya

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Laxman,

The little smiley means that I was joking with you about West Virginia.

I could really be an SOB and point out that during the Civil War Oklahoma was a territory, and outside the boundaries of secession (sp?).

Everyone,

Once again, I'm not a Yankee, regardless of the etymology of the word, or how anyone else chooses to use it, just as I'm not a New Yorker, a Cajun, or a Canuk.

If you must know, I'm most properly referred to as a Dutchman, as my family has a long association with the Pennsylvania Dutch (German) community.

But, I'll remind everyone here that nigger started out as a reference to Niger, from which many slaves were imported. How acceptable is that in polite society?

In times past, I'm certain nothing overt was meant by that, either, other than to remind blacks of their former status of slaves and their general lack of status in this country.

In the South, Yankee retains much the same type of association. It markes someone as a former enemy.

I'm truly sorry that this discussion has slipped to this point, but as someone here said that he remains "unreconstructed," I remain "non-Yankee."

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Wish I'd noticed the ugly turn this thread has taken earlier. Mike, I sincerely believe that your experience is atypical of most vacation experiences in the Deep South. It would embarrass and anger me to hear any of our Northern brethren referred to in this manner in my presence. I'd put a stop to it. That being said, I'd like to associate myself fully with the remarks made by 416R earlier. Not all the family trees of of Southerners resemble vines.<G> Most of us wear shoes, most of the time.
 
Hutch,

Nor would I disagree with you on that comment at all.

But I think it is safe to say that many people in the South still take the loss of the Civil War WAY too hard, and way too personally, and in that some of them it comes out in an extremely overt fashion.

Am I saying that the South is less friendly than the North, especially the North East? I'd be an idiot were I to say that.

But about 99.9999999995% of the time when you hear the word "Yankee" up north, it's being said by a baseball fan.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Well, if it's any consolation to you folks on the East Coast, when I was visiting Portsmouth, England, I told some elderly folks I was from America. "Oh, you're from the Colonies!"

I, "No, we won the war."

"Doesn't matter, it's still the colonies."

I, "Well, I'm from California and we were never a colony of England."

"All the same, the Colonies!"

What can you do to old folks especially when they tell you they remember the zeppelin bombing them in WWI?! Y'know, sometimes you just can't win.
 
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