No cover, stand or kneel?

[Dave R]

"serpentine, stanley, serpentine" who knows the movie that quote is from?

Peter Falk to Adam Arkin. "The In-Laws?" The father-in-law is CIA or something like that. Very funny flick. Remade with Michael Douglas and ???, right?

Back on topic, I think I need to change the way I train. I have never shot while moving. Can't do that at the range, so I think I either need to spend some time in the desert, or some time at IDPA. (Or is ISPC better?)

 

[swmike]

Whatever you choose to do, do it quick because there is a very good chance it will all be over in 6 seconds or less.

 

[stephen426]

I think the first thing you need to do is to take distance into consideration. If the threat is greater than 50 feet, a well aimed shot is better than a spray and pray. Realistically, I'm not sure how many of us can hit a target while we are moving. Your skill level should also be a major factor. If you are a very good shot and the other shooter is shooting all over the place, I would take a well aimed shot and try and take him out (It beats spraying lead until we both run out of ammo and have to bludgeon each other with our pistols... Glocks are not great bludgeon weapons! ).

The flip side to that is shooting and then moving since the shooter may also get "lucky". I would definitely stay on my feet though since crouching decreases mobility. I would consider crouching if it was a really long distance shot (more than 100 feet) and there really wasn't any cover at all (assuming that I have to shoot because he either has a weapon drawn on me or is already firing upon me).

I guess this is another reason why we should practice at greater distances. One other major factor is the number of bystanders near the other shooter. I know self preservation is important, but I would not spray and pray in a packed area. Besides, I could always use the other people as cover! Just kidding!

 

[Walter]

Those on here who advocate not hitting the dirt have never been in the military, and far more than likely, . . . have never been in any kind of shooting combat. The dirt is your friend. Movement is not. Kneeling is not.

Dwight 55 said it, and I concur. When shots are fired at you, the safest place to be an instant later is as flat on the ground as you can make yourself.
Then, after you have lowered your profile and gauged the situation, you can return fire, roll right or left, stand and run, or crawfish your ass back out of there.

Not many good choices, I'll admit, but then when you are being shot at,
You probably won't have time to stand around and weigh a lot of options in your mind.

just my opinion,,,

Walter

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Between the two options of stand or kneel, kneeling is the better option as it reduces your size as a target and will provide you with a more stable platform.

Of course, movement is a better idea, assuming the threat is close. I heard a guy speak who was part of the whole Blackhawk Down fiasco. As our soldiers were forced to cross a lot of open areas, then were often engaged in these open areas. The speaker noted that for targets inside of 75 yards, he would shoot while on the move, but the shooting tended to be more of suppressive fire than actual target shooting.

When targets were >75 yards, he had no problem with dropping to one knee for a stable shooting platform and getting a proper bead on the target and shooting the target.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Movement is probably a good idea but I wonder, if I can just place one accurate shot I can end the damn situation all together without all the running around.

Keep in mind that the soldiers engaged in such practices were wearing body armor, had the benefits of have brother soldiers to help neutralize threats, and had training and battle experience that undoubtedly helped them perform much better than folks without such training and experience. There is a HUGE if about whether you could place a single accurate shot and end the situation all together.

Why is the if so huge? Many reasons. First, you are assuming that you will in fact be able to make that one accurate shot that will end the situation before the bad guy nails you and that the bad guy will be incapacitated by your accurate shot. Second, you are taking it for granted that your gun will function 100% properly. Third, you are assuming that your firing will protect you from the firing by the bad guy. Generally speaking, guns and ammo make for poor ballistic protection from incoming rounds. Fourth, you are assuming omnipotent situtational awareness where you 'know' that there is only one bad guy that you must engage in order to come out safely. It may be that while being stationary and taking out the bad guy in your sights, one of his fellow bad guys will be shooting at you as an easy target.

 

[timothy75]

How about just running period? Like they say "you break it you buy it" I'm not comfortable just letting lead fly for the sake of movement. Thats something the BG would do not us. And it sounds like alot of you are implying the only time to shoot is when moving or behind cover, yet I doubt you spend you whole range sessions doing that. What happened to the old one shot draws from concealement? Dont they fit into defensive shooting anymore?

 

[Weeg]

Been reading this thread for a few days...Interesting...

"In a gunfight with no escape and no cover would it be best to kneel and sacrifice mobility or shoot standing?"

My .02:

There are way too many variables for any one "black and white" answer.

- "No Escape and no cover..."? Are we in the middle of a dry lake bed?

- Is cover close by?

- If, so, how close, and can you reach it in a couple of seconds?

- If so, is it high cover or low cover?

(TRAINING...Hint hint..)

- How many BG's are firing at you?

- Are they firing at you from cover?

- Are you alone?

- What type of weapon are you carrying?

- (Handgun) Was it holstered or ready for action when you were fired on?


??????????

 

[Koz]

The only situation I could think of where there is no cover or concealment is if you are in an empty alleyway or on a road and a BG is drawing his weapon on you. So I would think the best solution would get you out of his sights the fatest while allowing you to return fire effectively. To me it seems that going prone only does this once(dropping out of his sights limits mobility), while staying on your feet and moving does it constantly.

 

[Weeg]

Alleyways are inherently dangerous, as the high walls make wonderful "bullet channels"

:barf:

 

[wayneinFL]

If I was being shot at from a 100 yards, I'd sure as hell lay on the ground. If I were being shot at from 10 feet I'm moving and shooting. Anything in between depends. I'd have to say, inside of most realistic distances in which I would expect to be using a handgun to defend myself, I'd be shooting while moving, but not kneeling as I'd want mobility at close range. Also, people who miss while being shot at tend to flinch and shoot low. I don't see the advantage in kneeling, anyway, at close ranges. If you put a silhouette on the ground or three feet off the ground insode of 25 yards- I don't see the difference in hitting it. Move it unpredictably and it gets a lot harder to hit.