No cover, stand or kneel?

I cannot think of a single instance where kneeling would do you any good. It might provide a smaller target, but it also compacts the vital zones in their relationship to eachother; it puts the knees very close to the groin and torso. Visualize in your mind what a person in a typical kneeling position would look like from the shooter's perspective. It wouldn't take much luck to put a round or three into a critical area.

If you don't have physical cover, use movement as your cover. Badguys are generally poor shots and rely on a massive volley rather than precision fire. They chances of them taking a good sight picture, and making that one shot count, are very slim. Because of this, you moving acts the same as a solid object that obscures your visual signature from them.

How do you move? As fast as you can while without sacrificing your ability to deliver accurate return-fire.

Remember, you are a shooter, a gun nut, and have likely trained far more than your antagonist. All of that training and practice and general goodtimes at the range won't count for a hill of beans if you get all silly and just lob rounds at your enemy as he has lobbed them at you. We are not playing a rousing game of Badmitton, people!
 
Woodland

That is correct... move to the shooters right.

That majority will be right-handed... this tends to block their view of the target on the right with their gun and hand and arm, etc.

The natural direction of movement for the hand/arm, is downward and across the body... the other direction is un-natural and must be controlled by the shooter.

Under stress, the natural tends to take over...
That's why we practice...
to make the un-natural come naturally! :D

Most perps are not very practiced shooters... so they "naturally" miss down and left... (I hope! :rolleyes: )

The opposite for the left-handed perp...
So, if you have a split-second and have your wits about you... adjust accordingly.

EXAMPLE

In pistol training, they had a bunch of guys who had never fired a pistol in their lives... before this Training Course.

Near the end of training, as a demonstration, they had us "shuffle-step" toward our targets with our weapons pointed at it. They had us where our guns were within 3-4 yards and suddenly every DI there yelled "FIRE, FIRE, FIRE!"...

Everybody fired their last two rounds at point blank range...

Less than 3% of the company hit the silhouette with both shots and less than 5% hit the target AT ALL!

You guessed it... all the misses and most of the "single hits" were DOWN and to the "OFF-side" of the shooter. :p

Even in a stressful moment... you have a lot more time than you think...
Take full advantage of it and aim the gun... don't just point it!

Yes, I had two X's. ;) :D
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Movement is probably a good idea but I wonder, if I can just place one accurate shot I can end the damn situation all together without all the running around.
 
Tim,
You are thinking ahead and that's a good thing.
The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun.
The next rule is to not get shot.
Shooting your opponent is somewhere farther down the list.

Shooting someone who is shooting back at you is very different than target, or even IDPA shooting. Nobody wins a gunfight, they only survive them. The biggest factor in your survival potential is whether you got shot, and then how many times and where. Movement decreases the risk substantially. Distance and cover is preferable, but if all you have is your own movement to protect you, use it. Being able to return accurate, effective fire under those conditions is essential.
 
In a time not that distant, we were taught to move to

our left, by stepping with the left foot and dropping into a crouch by bending your knees and raising your weapon to your alignment of eyes and shoot. By doing this you have reduced your size and moved. You also have reduced your time to raise your weapon up, (by lowering your body and raising your weapon at the same time) Both hands on weapon, it is very fast and accurate.

My first round would be going off prior to completing the total movement and probabley hit the person in the thigh or groin area. I train myself to do this all the time. I prefer a cross draw holster, than the waist in the woods, but I carry at the waist with CCW. The cross draw is a good one, for this because you are moving to your left and if you are right handed you are moving where your weapon was.

If at all possible get to cover quick, if not. Move stop shoot, move stop shoot.
Going to the ground is not all bad, but you have got to roll and shoot roll and shoot. Moving and shoot, is the key, you need to investigate this and practice.

Harley
 
You're right Tim, in my opinion...

Try to keep it as simple as possible. During a gunfight bullets fly all over, there is no possible way of saying where they will and won't go, especially if the badguy is a "bad" shooter. Moving will not be any safer than standing still, but it will put you at a disadvantage of having to compensate for it. If you run dry move and reload, but most real gunfights don't last that long.

Also not looking where you are running is O.K. on a controlled range. But in the real world there are all kinds of obstacles to run into or trip over, and usually the first one down stays down.

And before anyone tries to tell me the "right way", just give Tim your opinion and leave it at that.:mad:
 
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We have found that most rounds fired at a flat surface only rise about 4-8 inches and travel in a flat trajectory till loss of energy and gravity take over.
Click to expand...

I have read this, and tried it myself, and it is true. For this reason I would not recomend lying down. If you are lying on the ground and the BG misses you, we already know a lot of misses tend to go low. So he hits the ground anywhere in front of you, and you have your whole body down in the probable path of a richoche. Probably face first, too, so even if the bullet doesn't hit you, next time you are out shooting, watch the ground when you are bouncing those pop cans. Now imagine laying just on the other side of where that bullet just kicked up all that dirt and rocks. OUCH!!

Of course, if you are on pavement you would get a whole bunch of sparks in your eyes. :D

Personaly, I think I would rather remain standing.
 
Also not looking where you are running is O.K. on a controlled range. But in the real world there are all kinds of obstacles to run into or trip over, and usually the first one down stays down.
Click to expand...
You make very good points. Am I allowed to say that? ;)
 
Keep moving. Also I was taught never to go prone in a urban enviroment because all the BGs crappy shots that are short will bounce riht off the concrete and right into you.
 
Timothy75, . . . borrowing a page from the "oorah" manual, . . . hit the dirt.

Those on here who advocate not hitting the dirt have never been in the military, and far more than likely, . . . have never been in any kind of shooting combat. The dirt is your friend. Movement is not. Kneeling is not.

1) Totally disregarding earlier posters, . . . no you do not present a bigger target, . . . on the contrary, . . . about all that is available to shoot at is your head, . . . making the other shooter's job much harder.

2) Your off hand makes a fist, and your shooting hand sets the butt of the pistol right on top of it, . . . almost as good as a sand bag. You should be able to "sand bag" your opponent very quickly from this position.

3) Get a good sight picture and fire off 3 or 4 rounds and roll to your left.

4) Get another good sight picture and fire off the next 3 or 4.

5) It takes some practice to do this, . . . but it is worth it. It is also the way to stay alive when caught out in the open.

If you want to see this in reality, . . . set up a pop can at about chest level and get in a fighting/firing stance. Have a buddy give you a command to commence fire on the can, . . . then at another command, . . . try firing at the can on the ground. Far more than likely, . . . you will shoot way over the one on the ground. That is the edge for you when it is you in the dirt.

Remember the old military response is: First Rule, . . . never get caught out in the open, . . . but if you do, . . . Rule 2 is hit the ground and return fire.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
I think that moving to concealment or preferably cover, is the thing to do here. If possible or needed, shoot as you move. If they have not spotted you yet, then just KEEP moving.
 
If it will help bullets that hit hard surfaces like cement or asphalt will travel about 4-8 inches above the ground. Bullets that hit dirt ricochet and jump up in the air at a much higher angle.

Looking at the original question there is no cover and no escape. You cannot avoid bullets because you cannot see them. Moving around is just as dangerous as standing still, and you will have to eventually shoot the badguy, or you will never stop running. And your movement will make it more difficult for you to hit him and will only give him more time to score a lucky hit.

And also kneeling may be more useful in a long distance shooting, there is no set answer on that question.

XavierBreath- Yes, Feel free.
 
scenarios...

The weaver stance is your best bet if your are practiced and plan to return fire immediately. If your undecide and aren't dead yet than yes..you better haul ass....:D
 
I'm not sure just how this medium-to-long-distance gunfight just materialized out in the open, but if it did, and you are a fairly good shot, and the BG's aren't, do whatever puts killing shots on the BG's the earliest. [That is probably shooting with two hands, standing. YMMV.] Probably the same answer if the BG's can shoot, except you may lose. If you can't shoot, run like hell, changing directions abruptly from time to time. Whether you live will depend on how well they can shoot.
 
Dwight 55,

having been in the military, we were taught to MOVE. The drill was called "Fire and Maneuver". You would run to cover, hit the dirt, and lay suppressing fire for your buddy would then move. Your buddy would then hit the dirt and lay suppressing fire. Then you would get up and run to the next point of cover. The whole point of the exercise was that you and your buddy would "leapfrog" (alternating tasks of running and shooting, laying suppressing fire) and advance towards the enemy and flank them.


So you are right, hitting the dirt is important. You have to move, but you better move to cover.

Cover: stops bullets.

Concealment: hides you, but does not stop bullets.

In the Urban scenario, and being alone, I would move to cover while drawing my weapon. Ideally I would fire from cover and move to flank my enemy as best I could. Being alone, that would probably mean I would lay suppressing fire as I ran from cover to cover.

If you are not running, shooting, or communicating, you should be reloading.
 
Same problem in a different era... I am an active fencer and also pretty up on the history of the sport. The problem you state here seems to be "do I concentrate on my attack or my defense?" Gun or sword it is the same problem and perhaps the old masters can shed some light on it...

Fence is a derivative of the word Defence. That is because the first thing you were taught upon enterring a fencing school (salle) was to DEFEND yourself. The prime idea was to not be hit. Teachers were paid good money by students and or their parents to see that they would not be killed their first time out. The entire primary focus therefore was on not being hit. You learned to parry first and to control distance before working on attacking. I think that should be the same focus we should have in an encounter armed with guns.

Old guides to dueling with swords would also advocate the learned fencer take a step back immediately at the start of hostilities. Even with swords it was understood that distance was your friend. Standing at a range where even an ignorant clod could run you through only gives advantage to the clod. Get away and use time and distance to your advantage. The odds are that if you are taking the time to seriously study you will be better prepared to use that time and distance than the uninformed.

Take this old advice to guns. Our first goal should be to survive. The first thing that would help preserve my life is increasing the range and making a harder target of myself through movement. That is what I am going to do. Even if it only deceases the odd of a hit for both myself and my adversary equally it still adds up to less of a chance of me getting shot and that is a plus in my book! Now if we can assume that we are likely more skilled than our foe, and by the fact that we practice with our weapons and are interested enough to research such items I believe the odds are we will be more skilled, then the addition of distance and movement, while reducing the chances to hit for our oppent will not hinder us as badly. Now we are not only reducing his chance of hitting us but we are reducing his chances greater than we reduce our own.

Me, I plan on backing away and to my left while I draw and return fire. I will go left for a simple reason, it feels better. When practicing this I find it easier to travers my weapon from left to right as I step back and to the left than the other way around. As much as possible I plan on increasing that distance until my opponent is a dot on the horizon if need be.
 
"serpentine, stanley, serpentine" who knows the movie that quote is from?


depends on a lot more situation information, is it a drive by, hit the dirt,
is he standing there trying to go cowboy? run and shoot. If you get him clenching his eyes shut and turning his head as he tries to shoot, you will most likely make it.

by running i mean RUNNING. everytime you get twice as far away from him you are half the size. 20 ft to 40 ft, 1/2 the size, 40 to 80, now 1/4 the original size. most BG's have never shot at paper, most never use the sights. In fact in a surprising amount, The first use of the weapon for real is in the act that gets them arrested or killed. But do not count on this.

Train to strike out Bobby Bonds, but be really happy when the need arises you are facing a T baller.
 
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