Night Sights & Low Light--An Experiment

LOL!

Strange how some target shooters with no laser experience, training or ability are so eager to condemn laser sights for low-light/darkness.

The same shooters that wear glasses or contacts to enhance their vision, wear electronic muffs to save their hearing, use red dots, scopes, night sights, knee pads, IR, NV, kydex, carbon fiber, big dots, fiber optic and on and on....just ignore the overwhelming documented evidence and the props from military, law enforcement and some of the greatest gunslingers in the world. They endorse and use laser sights.

Laser sighted shooting is very easy and very effective. Place the dot and you'll hit that spot. Simple as that.
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For now, I have two things to say:
The first is that I have challenged a lot of target shooters to compete....for serious money....in low light shooting. I have never lost and I definitely take their money. I call their money their tuition. They've paid for 'real world' school. :)

Secondly, if an old fashioned target shooter engages a laser-sighted bad guy in low-light or darkness....it will be his worst nightmare.
Darwin will prevail.

LEARNING LESSONS BELOW:

See shooting accuracy on the move: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter4/tabid/400/Default.aspx

See conquering low light - Ken Hackathorn: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter3/tabid/397/Default.aspx

For those still behind the learning curve, go here for a free laser-sight education: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/tabid/396/Default.aspx

See real experts like Todd Jarrett, Ken Hackathorn, Michael Bane, Wes Doss, and hear why they say Laser sights offer a clear advantage. See simple little videos that teach the 'new' art of survival.
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See conquering low light - Ken Hackathorn: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Vid...7/Default.aspx

For those still behind the learning curve, go here for a free laser-sight education: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Vid...6/Default.aspx

See real experts like Todd Jarrett, Ken Hackathorn, Michael Bane, Wes Doss, and hear why they say Laser sights offer a clear advantage. See simple little videos that teach the 'new' art of survival.
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Nice sales videos.

The last class I had with Ken Hackathorn was BEFORE he was a spokesman for Crimsontrace, hence not on their payroll. You are right. He is a fan of lasers. He thought they were great for inexperienced shooters, those who didn't know how to use their regular sites, had significant vision issues, etc.

Those real experts may be real experts, but they are also being sales people. If you have followed their careers, you will see where they highly promote products from whatever company for whom they are working.
 
Strange how some target shooters with no laser experience, training or ability are so eager to condemn laser sights for low-light/darkness.
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First of all, I didn't condemn them. I posted the comments of a trainer/instructor with considerable experience using lasers.

Second, I didn't condemn them. I merely pointed out what the trainer felt was one disadvantage to lasers. Any technique or device has advantages and disadvantages. Pointing out a single disadvantage is a long way from condemnation. I believe that the instructor in question is actually a proponent of lasers, but he does realize that there are some limitations and disadvantages to using them.

Third, I think that perhaps it's a bit egotistical to assume that those who disagree with you are "target shooters with no laser experience, training or ability". That's a lot of assumptions packed into a small sentence. While it may well be true that there is no one here who matches your "laser experience", your training, or your ability, and while we may all qualify as merely "target shooters" in light of your experience as an operator, that's not to say that we have NO experience, NO training, NO ability and NO experience with anything other than targets.

Furthermore, attempting to make points in a discussion by belittling/denigrating the people you're arguing with is called an ad hominem. Not only is it a logical fallacy, it is prohibited at TFL.
 
I remember when I was younger and new to LE work. I had what might charitably be called 'casual disdain' for night sights.

Many years farther down the road, having acquired some experience and having listened to other experienced folks who I have come to respect, I find that many of my personally-owned handguns are equipped with night sights of various design. My last couple of issued weapons had them installed, too.

When we equipped our folks with new pistols which had night sights I started hearing how useful some of the younger had found them in various situations. Some were 'firearms enthusiasts' and some were just 'professionally armed gun carriers'. They did seem to find common ground that night sights seemed to offer them some advantages in some situations, though.

Having a piece of equipment is one thing ... but knowing how to properly and most effectively use it is often another thing. Having it be practical and useful in a given situation is another thing, too.

Lasers? Advantages and disadvantages ... just like other optional equipment increasingly found on firearms nowadays.

User familiarity, training and experience with equipment is important. The equipment isn't going to be using itself, you know.

I'm not in the business of shilling for firearm equipment companies. I'm more interested in the knowledge, skill and training of the equipment user, as well as the proper maintenance of the equipment.

I've come to find it's increasingly easier to avoid becoming mired down in fruitless arguments about a number of equipment issues.

Training with an open mind can be an illuminating experience.

Learning from experience and being able to apply those lessons to training can be pretty helpful, too.

FWIW, I've heard it said, with some surprise on the part of the person saying it, that it's sometimes hard to see the Taser's laser dot against a moving surface of varying color, texture and shape during an active situation is some light conditions, too. Imagine that. They aren't offered with night sights, though. ;)

Familiarity with your equipment when used in various conditions and situations - in which it might actually be necessary to use it - is arguably helpful to anticipate and address difficulties when using it.

Learning to gain any and all advantages ... and effectively use them to your advantage ... might be handy, too.

I wouldn't let the bright lights of night sights and lasers distract the user from developing and maintaining the mindset, knowledge & skill base/set generally helpful to survival ... :cool:


Just my thoughts. Not interested in 'taking sides'.
 
I'm not condemning lasers either, they do have their place. Especially for those of us with aging eyes, decreased night vision and other issues.

But my experience with lasers shows that too many people spend more time trying to get the laser on targe than taking the shot. Even though a laser can help you lead a moving target, it's seldom used that way. That and jerking the trigger seem to be common.

Laser sighted shooting is very easy and very effective. Place the dot and you'll hit that spot. Simple as that.
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It's not that simple because real opponents move from place to place, duck, bob, weave and try to take cover. Trying to "keep up" with a laser is pointless as you'll be reacting. Without the laser it seems people are able to switch into "lead compensating" easier and score hits.
 
But my experience with lasers shows that too many people spend more time trying to get the laser on targe than taking the shot. Even though a laser can help you lead a moving target, it's seldom used that way. That and jerking the trigger seem to be common.
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Yep.

This is factually wrong.

Amusingly so!
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Oh do tell!
 
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Sorry to be a little late on this post...I've been bopping around the country a bit lately.

To set the record straight, Crimson Trace sponsors SHOOTING GALLERY...however, if you saw the episode last season working with Wes Doss, you'd have seen my original Laser Grips — 1911 first generation, the first month they were available...like 1993 or so. When I agreed to do the CT video I waived any fee, because I believe in the product. My bedside gun, a Sig 226 (who doesn't sponsor anything of mine and lots of stuff from my competitors) has Laser Grips, night sights and a SureFire weapon-mounted light...belts and suspenders and, I suppose, duct tape.

I like to have as many tools in my toolbox as I can get. I fully understand that the question "which tool is best?" is meaningless without a specified use. A hammer's a great tool, but not if you need an adjustable wrench. A power saw is also a great tool, but not if you have no idea how to use it. Some of the descriptions of problems with lasers on this thread are function of a lack of understanding/training with the tool. Any sighting system is what it is.

RE: Flashlights...Bill Rogers taught me the Harries technique and his own hands-extended-alongside technique sometime in the early 1980s when we were shooting IPSC in Florida. We were using Mini-Maglites back then and treated any situation with a light as a one-handed shooting drill. The first time I saw the neck index technique was from Captain Dave Arnold in I believe the early 1990s...he'd been working with the firearms instructors at Quantico and called the technique the "FBI style." He also used the hand with the light extended to the side, with the caveat (as mentioned above) that a bad guy's round could be "flinched" into your body. By the time I worked with Bill Murphy at the SureFire Institute, we ran through all of those techniques.

As much as possible, I try not to overly favor any flashlight technique, but I default to the Rogers, which to me is easiest and least awkward to bring back into a high ready position. I also spend much more time practicing one-handed shooting than I used to.

BTW, I remember when Kenny Hackathorn used to razz me about my enthusiasm with lasers. Then one day out of the clear blue he called me up and said, "Dude! You're right! Dude! They work great for what they're for. Dude!"

If you know Ken, you know I'm not exaggerating the "dude" factor!

Again, my apologies for taking so long to get to this thread.

Michael B
 
Quote:
This is factually wrong.

Amusingly so!

Oh do tell!
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I can think of a lot of departments that issue lasers, or laser/light combos to their officers. And that's just in the Southwest Ohio region. I have heard (though not confirmed) that Cincinnati PD itself authorizes the use of Crimson Trace grips for their M&P 9's.

It's impossible to see a police owned M4 around here without a Laser hung off a rail and an Eotech or ACOG on top of it.

I will agree with everyone else though. Saying lasers haven't caught on with LEO's is so wrong it's funny. I think your information is about 5 years old.
 
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