Harries essentially allows you to cradle the pistol. It doesn't really allow any meaningful support. Good or Harries, you still only have one hand gripping the gun. I personally shoot better with one hand by itself than I do trying to rest one hand on top of the other. You may be different. I suspect you may feel different after a little practice with both methods.
Night Sights & Low Light--An Experiment
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
Believe this: Your weapon will "go down" many, many, many times before a lasergrip will malfunction.
You also mentioned a "new shooters" dilemma. Well, all things have a learning curve. Laser sights have a very quick learning curve to proficiency....about ten minutes. And, of course, basic efficiency in weapon use and iron sights is the needed foundation for effective laser-aimed shooting and backup.
Laser sights are, indeed, 21st century technology. They are the answer for old eyes. They are 'the' superior sighting system in low light and darkness....where most confrontations take place.
Watch Ken Hackathorn and other experts demonstrate reality: http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Videos/TheArtOfSurvivalChapter3/tabid/397/Default.aspx
My self-defense handguns below are lasergrip equipped for a reason:
On a stationary paper target, and me not moving off the X....about 30ft.- a car length.
It's pretty easy once you've learned how to point-shoot.
About 2 hours of learning and 2 boxes of ammo.
Remember....I agree with your conclusion that night sights have a 'very' limited window of use. Symbolism over substance so to speak, but they're a helluva moneymaker.
Because of that, I use lasergrips in case of an unfortunate confrontation in low light or darkness. They actually work.
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John ~
One problem with Harries is that it is not terrifically useful around left side cover. Around left side cover, Harries ties you up in knots, and creates a high likelihood of blinding yourself by illuminating your cover at close range w/o even getting the light around the corner! In Harries around left side cover you have to lean out so far that the cover might as well not be there in the first place. Also, although it's stable for shooting, it's just not generally a good position for searching, since it (again) leaves you tied in knots, unable to block a surprise blow from either side, and also because it, like weapon mounted lights, also pretty well forces you to point the gun everywhere you point the light. So it's a great shooting technique, but not necessarily useful for some specific and predictable non-shooting preludes.
I've never heard the "Good technique" so named. Have heard it called "Georgia Patrol," going back to the days when LEOs would rest the giant huge 4-cell D flashlight on the left shoulder while approaching a car at night (why Georgia? Dunno).
It is indeed a good technique, but since all kinds of studies have shown that bad guys tend to shoot at the light, I dislike putting the light right next to my head like that. Try this, though: flashlight in hand, bring your hand up to your shoulder/neck level, aimed at the target. Now with your elbow raised, simply move your hand away from your body, so the light is held at least two feet away from your head and slightly above it.
This allows you to illuminate your sights (with side splash) and your target (directly). It also allows you to easily search while keeping the gun pointed in a direction known to be safe (down) rather than pointing the muzzle into areas of unknown safety. With your hands separated, and one hand raised, you're prepared to fend off an unexpected assault from either side. If attacked from the left, you can simply pivot and fire with your right hand; if attacked from the right, you can use the flashlight as an impact weapon against the assailant until you can bring the gun into play. If the assailant shoots at you rather than rushing you, he's more likely to aim at the light than at your body, giving you time to respond appropriately. And you are more likely to keep your balance if he rushes you, since your hands are not "tied together" by your flashlight technique.
Try it ...
pax
ps -- agree with Skyguy about lasers. They're the best low light technique ever invented.
One problem with Harries is that it is not terrifically useful around left side cover. Around left side cover, Harries ties you up in knots, and creates a high likelihood of blinding yourself by illuminating your cover at close range w/o even getting the light around the corner! In Harries around left side cover you have to lean out so far that the cover might as well not be there in the first place. Also, although it's stable for shooting, it's just not generally a good position for searching, since it (again) leaves you tied in knots, unable to block a surprise blow from either side, and also because it, like weapon mounted lights, also pretty well forces you to point the gun everywhere you point the light. So it's a great shooting technique, but not necessarily useful for some specific and predictable non-shooting preludes.
I've never heard the "Good technique" so named. Have heard it called "Georgia Patrol," going back to the days when LEOs would rest the giant huge 4-cell D flashlight on the left shoulder while approaching a car at night (why Georgia? Dunno).
It is indeed a good technique, but since all kinds of studies have shown that bad guys tend to shoot at the light, I dislike putting the light right next to my head like that. Try this, though: flashlight in hand, bring your hand up to your shoulder/neck level, aimed at the target. Now with your elbow raised, simply move your hand away from your body, so the light is held at least two feet away from your head and slightly above it.
This allows you to illuminate your sights (with side splash) and your target (directly). It also allows you to easily search while keeping the gun pointed in a direction known to be safe (down) rather than pointing the muzzle into areas of unknown safety. With your hands separated, and one hand raised, you're prepared to fend off an unexpected assault from either side. If attacked from the left, you can simply pivot and fire with your right hand; if attacked from the right, you can use the flashlight as an impact weapon against the assailant until you can bring the gun into play. If the assailant shoots at you rather than rushing you, he's more likely to aim at the light than at your body, giving you time to respond appropriately. And you are more likely to keep your balance if he rushes you, since your hands are not "tied together" by your flashlight technique.
Try it ...
pax
ps -- agree with Skyguy about lasers. They're the best low light technique ever invented.
Double Naught Spy
New member
In FoF training at Thunder Ranch, the ranch handyman was a Vietnamese gentleman named Tran who would serve as one of the opposition force guys to be sought out in the simulators. His "specialty," according to Clint Smith, was stopping SWAT teams by himself during the night exercises where he didn't use a light. He didn't always win, but he often won several times in a row.
It is really easy to say that you need to use a light sparingly, never from the same position twice, etc., but when you are navigating unfamiliar ground, such as in a parking lot at night, a business where the power has gone off, a friend's home, etc., "sparingly" takes on a whole new meaning. If you are pinned down in one spot, then you only get to use your light once and that is it?
The other aspect is that just because the light has gone off doesn't mean that you are invisible. Tran was able to hit darkened targets with considerable frequency because he noted the movement of the light and shot to where he expected the darkened target to be. As a bad guy, he didn't have to worry about collateral damage, bystanders, etc.
Like Pax, I had never heard of it as the "Good Technique," LOL. In fact in Googling the title, this is the only place on the internet that I am seeing the method giving the moniker of "Good Technique."
My pop learned the "FBI" method in Dallas Pd as being where you held the light up out and forward from your head so as to move the focus of the BGs away from oneself. He still got the benefit of illuminating the sights as well as illuminating the bad guys and often with elevated lighting that would help downplay problems of shadows caused by more direct frontal lighting as provided by the "Good Technique."
So ranburr, where are you in Texas and did you want to come out next time and demo for us?
It is really easy to say that you need to use a light sparingly, never from the same position twice, etc., but when you are navigating unfamiliar ground, such as in a parking lot at night, a business where the power has gone off, a friend's home, etc., "sparingly" takes on a whole new meaning. If you are pinned down in one spot, then you only get to use your light once and that is it?
The other aspect is that just because the light has gone off doesn't mean that you are invisible. Tran was able to hit darkened targets with considerable frequency because he noted the movement of the light and shot to where he expected the darkened target to be. As a bad guy, he didn't have to worry about collateral damage, bystanders, etc.
Like Pax, I had never heard of it as the "Good Technique," LOL. In fact in Googling the title, this is the only place on the internet that I am seeing the method giving the moniker of "Good Technique."
My pop learned the "FBI" method in Dallas Pd as being where you held the light up out and forward from your head so as to move the focus of the BGs away from oneself. He still got the benefit of illuminating the sights as well as illuminating the bad guys and often with elevated lighting that would help downplay problems of shadows caused by more direct frontal lighting as provided by the "Good Technique."
So ranburr, where are you in Texas and did you want to come out next time and demo for us?
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Well Double Naught, it was invented by Ken J. Good , the founding director of the SureFire Institute. It is also called the Neck-Index Technique. I learned it from John Farnam at DTI. I am assuming that you are the general area of Waco. I have no need to go up there. If you would like to come to Houston, I would be more than happy to teach it to you. I (and many others) find it to be one of the better flashlight techniques.
The range to target for this test was 50% farther than that. In spite of that, in light too dark to see normal sights (dusk), all of the shooters were able to hit the target with the same level of accuracy using night sights that they demonstrated in normal light.
One could argue that 45 feet is way too far away to be practicing self-defense shooting--that may or may not be true, but it doesn't change the facts. The facts are that the "next to useless" night sights allowed the shooters, under conditions where they couldn't see normal sights, to perform better than you claim your point-shooting technique works for you.
I didn't really mean to defend the Harries technique as an all-purpose technique, but rather was pointing out the advantage that it offered in terms of additional support to the shooting hand compared to a technique that leaves the gun hand to do all the work of supporting/steadying the pistol.
Your points are well taken, for those situations where the Harries is problematic one could transition to a one-handed shooting technique (such as the FBI technique) that allows more flexible positioning of the handgun & flashlight.
I have shot with both hands, one hand and the Harries technique. The Harries technique is definitely more steady than one hand shooting but not as steady as being able to use two hands with no flashlight involved. It clearly has some limitations, such as the ones pax mentioned, but for the situations where it doesn't tie one in knots it offers an advantage over any technique that leaves you shooting completely one handed.
That's what I figured, but I couldn't find any reference to the technique by that name.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I am fairly certain that Ken Good didn't invent the neck-index technique and it isn't called the Good Technique by him. He doesn't claim to have invented it, at least not in the article below that he wrote. It wasn't even described until 1994 by Brian Puckett, although Good says he was teaching it two years prior and both he and Puckett refer to it as the Neck Index Technique.
http://www.surefire.com/articles-handheld_techniques
With that said, the technique was poo-poo'd back in the 50s when my pop started as a Dallas cop, hence their use of the FBI method I mentioned above. That isn't to say that the method is necessarily bad, but that Good didn't invent it...not unless he is a really old man, as they were correcting for its shortcomings of being next to the head at least a half century ago.
As near as I can tell, Good simply started reteaching and old method, noting its strengths, in comparison with other methods, all of which have their own strengths as well.
Thanks for the offer of the instruction, but I have had it.
The "FBI" method mentioned by PAX and Double-Naught is the one I was taught in training and the preferred method for flashlight use. The Harris technique came along years later.
Quite often the neck-index technique was used when approaching a stopped car (usually because your car's lights overwhelmed most flashlights of the time) as it pre-positioned the aluminum light for a strike if something went south.
In general, flashlights are not supposed to be used in a constant-on position when clearing a building or during a firefight. In these situations, lights should be used sparingly to illuminate areas of interest or identify silhouttes. You'd illuminate an area for 1-2 seconds max and unless you spotted a person, turn off the light and move using the "afterimage" on your retina before hitting the light again.
The extended-arm or "FBI" method works well out of doors but can be difficult indoors. Indoors, the light is held waist high, and a bit more than shoulder wide. Again, constant light is avoided and only used when you've found your quarry.
With flashlights like the Sure Fire, with tailcap mounted buttons, I've found that the "Modified FBI" technique (holding the light in the weak hand with the upper arm level, lower arm upraised or or similar type position) as comfortable as anything else. While this doesn't give support to the firing hand, it provides a lot more flexibility for illumination in close quarters.
There was debate for years about the FBI method of holding the light away from the body. Logic says that shots aimed towards the light held away from the body increase your survival odds. In practice, many cops found that thugs were lousy shots and often shot wide of their mark. The debate continues today to some extent.
With the advent of super-bright Xenon bulbs that are painfully bright and wipe out an opponent's night vision the issue of light placement is somewhat less important.
Quite often the neck-index technique was used when approaching a stopped car (usually because your car's lights overwhelmed most flashlights of the time) as it pre-positioned the aluminum light for a strike if something went south.
In general, flashlights are not supposed to be used in a constant-on position when clearing a building or during a firefight. In these situations, lights should be used sparingly to illuminate areas of interest or identify silhouttes. You'd illuminate an area for 1-2 seconds max and unless you spotted a person, turn off the light and move using the "afterimage" on your retina before hitting the light again.
The extended-arm or "FBI" method works well out of doors but can be difficult indoors. Indoors, the light is held waist high, and a bit more than shoulder wide. Again, constant light is avoided and only used when you've found your quarry.
With flashlights like the Sure Fire, with tailcap mounted buttons, I've found that the "Modified FBI" technique (holding the light in the weak hand with the upper arm level, lower arm upraised or or similar type position) as comfortable as anything else. While this doesn't give support to the firing hand, it provides a lot more flexibility for illumination in close quarters.
There was debate for years about the FBI method of holding the light away from the body. Logic says that shots aimed towards the light held away from the body increase your survival odds. In practice, many cops found that thugs were lousy shots and often shot wide of their mark. The debate continues today to some extent.
With the advent of super-bright Xenon bulbs that are painfully bright and wipe out an opponent's night vision the issue of light placement is somewhat less important.
Drat...
I meant to thank JohnKSa and Double-Naught for their work in running these tests. If you pardon the pun, the results were illuminating.
Another couple of tests that I'm sure would be of further interest would be using a laser-sighted handgun to see if it aids the acquisition of the target. I'd suggest using black t-shirts over each target to minimize contrast against the sights (and because so many thugs tend to wear dark clothing).
My interest would be on whether the laser allows the shooter to "find" the target easily and how much distraction ambient smoke in the air causes. An observer off to the side might note how much the laser pinpoints the shooter too.
This could be a good test for snubby wheelguns too. Ideally a fixed sight gun, a "Night Guard" model with the Cylinder & Slide sights and a laser-equipped unit. I'd suggest ammo be at least .38+P to determine the effects of muzzle flash on acquiring the different sight types as well.
I meant to thank JohnKSa and Double-Naught for their work in running these tests. If you pardon the pun, the results were illuminating.
Another couple of tests that I'm sure would be of further interest would be using a laser-sighted handgun to see if it aids the acquisition of the target. I'd suggest using black t-shirts over each target to minimize contrast against the sights (and because so many thugs tend to wear dark clothing).
My interest would be on whether the laser allows the shooter to "find" the target easily and how much distraction ambient smoke in the air causes. An observer off to the side might note how much the laser pinpoints the shooter too.
This could be a good test for snubby wheelguns too. Ideally a fixed sight gun, a "Night Guard" model with the Cylinder & Slide sights and a laser-equipped unit. I'd suggest ammo be at least .38+P to determine the effects of muzzle flash on acquiring the different sight types as well.
So??
If you ever get into a gunfight odds are that even you will point-shoot, probably one-handed, too. Lol
I will probably do likewise, only I'll have a laser dot to place on the threat. Place that dot and I'll hit that spot.
Anyway, you guys were target shooting in low-light and darkness. Great experiment and probably great fun. You learned most of the disadvantages of night sights and white light. Those were valuable learning moments.
But, keep in mind that target shooting is not the same as self-defense aiming/shooting/moving. Not even close. Target shooting is relaxed, run-a-gun practice and fun....not a startling, shocking, fear laden moment of survival.
Nor is the use of a flashlight common in most self-defense encounters. White light is ordinarily used for LE/military style planned clearing/identifying bad guys....not for a stickup in a Walmart parking lot.
There are a million scenarios to imagine, but reality says that a self-defense encounter will happen suddenly and likely in low-light where the threat is easily seen and identifiable. Because of that, I am concerned with immediate self-defense, therefore I cheat and use a Crimson Trace lasergrip sighting system on my handguns.
Reasons? Anyone can shoot from the hip, shoulder, etc, under, over around, moving or from wherever....no sights are needed. There are many folks with old eyes and poor eyesight or bad night vision. Again, no iron sights are needed. And there is no iron sight fumbling stress while under the fear of death.
Finally, I find it extremely puzzling that there are still so many gunslingers out there that have not figured out that a laser sighting system is the superior handgun sighting system in low-light and darkness.
Whatever happened to 'live and learn'?
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Sparks2112
New member
Really? I had one in the last Walmart parking lot I was in where someone was trying to stick me up.
Actually everyone I know who CCW's has a light on them or near them at all times, maybe we're over prepared though.
So "next to useless", unless you meant it as hyperbole is inaccurate. They are very useful in certain situations. More useful in those specific situations than point shooting, the alternative technique you suggested.
To paraphrase DNS, given that none of us wet ourselves, I feel it's safe to say that none of us were under the impression that we were in "a startling, shocking, fear laden moment of survival" and were, instead, well aware that we were just target shooting.
I began carrying a small flashlight long before I had a CHL. Over the years I've upgraded my lights as the technology improved and I now carry a very small LED light that puts out about 100 lumens in a package that can be concealed in my hand. I use it several times a day and "deploying it" is as fast as drawing my handgun. Not because I practice pulling out my flashlight but because I use it so much. I don't understand how people get by without having a light handy.
Bentonville
New member
JohnKSa..What is the name of the little powerful light you carry?
We qual at night, but not every qual. To me, the biggest impediment to speed is the almost subconscious desire adjust the light to point it directly at the target. You need not do that, just splash light downrange and address the target as soon as you assess the threat. You should practice that technique often. Dry firing if you can't get range time.
The point made about moving offline after using the light (or changing a mag for that matter) is a good one, but in tight quarters you often don't have the room or risk falling if there is clutter.
Odds are you will react like you have trained. And practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you haven't trained or a psychologically prepared to run away and fire over you shoulder whilst doing so, you probably will do exactly that.
Yes, anyone can. Most can't do it with any proficiency. And that is demonstrated even on a range addressing paper targets that aren't shooting back at you.
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While such forms of shooting are not nearly as stressful as "real life", not many practice scenarios are. We train and practice so that our reflexes, movements, and actions are coordinated sufficiently to hit the target. It also lets us identify short-comings or weaknesses in our methods - hopefully ones we can avoid - so that in a crunch, the motions are nearly automatic while the brain figures out the tactical needs.
By practicing various situations and tactics we can apply a solution quickly without panic and almost as an automatic response. There is a huge difference between how your average Joe Sixpack would treat an intruder situation versus someone with police or protective-services training.
While laser sights can be useful for some, it still takes time to train in their proper use. Simply putting them on your gun (even properly aligned) does not make you a marksman any more than buying a Ferarri makes you a race car driver. Novices tend to focus on coordinating the jerky movements of the sight with a precision X-ring hit and I've seen many shooters wonder why their shots all end up low-right as they jerk the trigger and flinch. Even some experienced shooters spend too much time centering the shots instead of trying to make hits.
I'm not knocking lasers specifically, but like any other device, they need some training time to make the user accurat wit hthem.
It's the Fenix L1T V2.0. It runs off a single AA battery--I use the rechargeable high-output NimH batteries for economy. Fenix makes a variety of lights, but I feel that one is the best balance of features, brightness & size.
Not only is it not required to direct the light so that it's pointing exactly at the target, sometimes there are benefits of NOT pointing exactly at the target. Toward the end of the writeup I address an issue with backscatter from the light reflecting off the discharge smoke. It was found that pointing at the ground between the target & the shooter provided enough illumination of the target for the shooter to clearly see the target. Then, with a night-sight equipped pistol the shooter could line up and shoot without being bothered by the reflected light from the discharge smoke. This technique can not be counted upon to provide enough target illumination to allow the use of normal sights--night sights are required.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
No, you probably won't "place" the dot on the threat. You will be painting the threat all over with your dancing dot, watching it bounce around, and hoping that you pull the trigger when the dot has is crossing a critical area. It is one of the reasons lasers have failed to gain significant favor.
Just curious, if people don't use their sights, how is it you think you will be using your laser sights and not just point shooting?
There is something to this. At least one training instructor notes that the use of lasers seems to result in slower times when engaging moving targets compared to using standard sighting techniques.
The analysis was that the shooter was slowed down by first trying to locate the dot and then by trying to get it placed properly on the moving target instead of just concentrating on the basics of shooting and getting off a shot.
It's a variant of the reason that shooters may find that they're faster and more accurate when shooting offhand with a rifle if they use iron sights as opposed to a scope with any significant amount of magnification. The magnification not only magnifies the target, it also magnifies the hold wobble which can be disconcerting to the shooter by making it look like the crosshairs are racing all over the target. Instead of lining up and taking a shot, the shooter chases the crosshairs trying to get things lined up while fighting the wobble. Without the magnification the wobble is still there but it appears smaller (or may not be visible) to the shooter which means that instead of fighting the wobble he can just line up and shoot.