new Winchester Model 1894 30-30

If they'd gone back to the 94's roots as Browning planted 'em, since they were doing all new tooling anyway, they could have done some of the best 94s ever produced & I'd own two new ones today, regardless of the high prices.

do you think most gun owners detest the new Winchester 94's because of the design or because they're made in Japan? I don't see many people complaining about Brownings or even Weatherbys being made in Japan, so I guess i'm curious why some hate the idea that a Winchester is made there also. and why doesn't Winchester produce the Win 94 stateside like they do with the Model 70? Is it a matter of cost?
 
If it was a matter of cost, they'd be making them in Taiwan or China. The Japanese don't work for peanuts any more.
I have had two Japanese built guns, a Miroku low wall and a SKB SxS double shotgun. Both were absolute gems quality wise.
Even Honda is beginning to outsource its smaller motorcyles to Taiwan, leaving the Japanese to build their premium models that people are willing to pay top dollar for.
 
And there are many who feel the original design has been bastardized beyond endurance, rather than made better.

Parts & processes have been altered & added that do not improve the gun.
With the rebounding hammers in 86s, 92s, and 94s came stiffer actions, heavier triggers, and in some cases reduced ignition reliability.
The angle eject was only an improvement for the 4% of Model 94 owners who mounted glass.
The crossbolt safety has been known to activate itself on occasion.
And, the current slider can be uncomfortable against skin & in the way of a tang sight installation.

With the possible exception of the scope users, very few of the over 6 million Model 94 fans & owners since the model came out ever asked for any of that.
Denis

I don't agree with your opinion on this..and here's why...

somethings, we have no control over..ie, heavier triggers...We don't buy Leaded fuel at the pumps any longer ;) Regulations, do and will change things over the course of time. As for the assertion, that only a 'Few' model 94 owners ever asked for Optic accommodations, ...what data/Proof do you have to offer and back this up :rolleyes:

Different field conditions/layouts, can dictate, if a scope should be used...Whats wrong with having that option :) I have taken game with and Without Optics. I have 2 model 94s..(pic below)...one with a scope and the other without...I prefer a scope for a more compassionate take down, then without. I have No problems/ego with excepting my own personal limitations and taking advantage of a scope.

As for paying the sum of $1000. or so for this gun..at the present, there is Zero debate about the quality and reliability with these new Winchesters..in fact, there is very high praise. Cannot say the same with Rem or Marlin or even Moss these days.

Just my take on all of this ...carry on ;)
 

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As for paying the sum of $1000. or so for this gun..at the present, there is Zero debate about the quality and reliability with these new Winchesters..in fact, there is very high praise. Cannot say the same with Rem or Marlin or even Moss these days.

agreed. the thing that has me perplexed is that gun owners frequently complain about the price tag for the newer Win 94's but then complain about the inexpensive lever guns on the market being lemons. case in point, Marlins and Mossbergs are priced at 1/3 the cost but there seem to be frequent complaints about build quality and function. so basically gun owners want a less expensive lever gun and will complain when it doesn't meet their satisfaction, but they'll also complain about paying a higher price tag for a Winchester 94, that by all accounts, is a better quality firearm. gun owners can't have it both ways. you get what you pay for imo
 
agreed. the thing that has me perplexed is that gun owners frequently complain about the price tag for the newer Win 94's but then complain about the inexpensive lever guns on the market being lemons. case in point, Marlins and Mossbergs are priced at 1/3 the cost but there seem to be frequent complaints about build quality and function. so basically gun owners want a less expensive lever gun and will complain when it doesn't meet their satisfaction, but they'll also complain about paying a higher price tag for a Winchester 94, that by all accounts, is a better quality firearm. gun owners can't have it both ways. you get what you pay for imo[/QUOTE
]

'You get what you pay for'...doesn't always ring true with everything..in fact..the markup for many items, is extremely high....we paid a lot for American automobiles for years..and they took us to the cleaners with giving us junk.

What I know is this...I can purchase a gun for 3..4 or even $500. and have something that is very suspect, or pay a grand for something that you can put your trust in without any reservation...not a hard decision to make. The other very attractive alternative is...the gun shops have plenty of used Winchesters that are very affordable to snatch up.
 
Gas,
It's a mix- many don't like the idea of the classic & quintessential American workingman's rifle being made in the Orient, and the Winchester name is so closely intertwined with the history of the western expansion that it's sacriligious to have it made by any other country. Much more so in that respect than the Browning or Weatherby branding.

Everybody knows Colt & Winchester "won the West".
Browning was selling his designs, not making them under his own name.
Weatherby who?

Imagine the outcry if Colt were to have their Peacemaker made in Japan. Regardless of quality, the idea's repugnant to many.

The project manager said various options were considered, including Turkey & Russia, and the Miroku operation that was already producing leverguns was settled on for cost reasons & acceptability to the buying public. Nobody would buy a Chinese 94.
A US-made 94, he said, would have an even higher pricetag.

The 94 is not now intended for mass sales, Miroku doesn't have the room to churn them out in volume, so they're a semi-limited production nostalgia item at a high price along with the other older "Winchester" designs produced there.

In bygone times, the Marlin 336 and the Winchester 94 were both priced much closer together, both were good quality working guns, and it was largely a matter of just choosing between which style of levergun you preferred.

Today, since the 94 has gone off-shore & doubled in price it's no longer the affordable entry-level deer gun for new riflemen or the ol' faithful first choice as a general purpose truck gun that it used to be.

With the decline in quality of the Marlins, those remain more affordable, but they have to be approached with caution when looking at a new one.

Winchester 94 prices will never come down, but hopefully Marlin quality will come back up.

Personally, having owned and hunted with both in .30-30, either one USED to be about equal in overall quality & performance in the "good old days". :)
Both were good, solid, dependable guns that people knew & understood. And- that people could afford to buy.

Today I have the two 94s in .30-30, a .357 Marlin, a .44 Mag Marlin, and a .45 Colt Marlin.
I prefer the Winchester's "feel" in .30-30, but prefer the Marlins in handgun calibers.
The guns are all older, and as the current situation stands I have no interest in buying a new Winchester because of what's been done to them, and I'm waiting to see if Remington can restore the Marlins to what they used to be before I consider spending any more money on one of those.

Music,
Yes, we do retain at least some measure of control- we can choose not to buy a product we find offensive. :)

There are, in the case of the 94, millions still in circulation & it's not all that difficult to find an older one without the unnecessary re-designs.

The new 94 hasn't been out long enough to give much of a track record, but the 86 Mirokus have & you can find reports of ignition failures attributed to the rebounding hammer.
I am NOT saying the new 94 should be avoided because of this, or that it WILL have ignition problems. I'm just commenting on the rebounding hammer in general.

I considered buying a new 92 earlier this year, but one of the deal-killers was the tang safety. It leaves an open space next to the hammer for gunk to get in, and it irritated my hand. I would have had to either file the nub down or remove the safety altogether.
I know- it's not an issue for many, but for many others it is.

There's been a scope option for the 94s for many years prior to the angle eject introduction. The AE is actually the least offensive of the modifications to the original design & one I could live with.
My 16-inch 94 in .30-30 has it & it's tolerable.

As California has come to rule the nation in certain aspects of the firearms manufacturing industry, and as the 1% of handgun owners who mount lights & lasers on their guns has dictated to the rest of us that we have to have accessory rails we don't want, so has the tiny percentage of those who stick glass on a 94 dictated to the rest of us that we have to have an angle eject action.

Back to the 86 briefly- That rifle was highly respected in the Old West for it's power and its slick action. The Miroku Winchester 86 I had was beautifully done, but I couldn't for the life of me see where all the praise for the slick action came from. It was stiff, and one day I finally realized that what I had was the result of the rebounding hammer, and that action was not representative of an original 86.

On a related note, I have worked with 92 levergun repros by three different companies. The original Winchester 92s were also slick little guns. Two different Italian 92 makers' levers were much slicker than the current Miroku 92 I had here. They don't have the design "upgrades" & they don't have rebounding hammers.
Their actions require noticeably less effort to cycle.

The rebounding hammer system adds trigger weight and adds cycling effort, by its nature.
The undercut bolt on the new 94 is only an improvement over previous rebounding hammer versions, it is not a significant benefit over pre-rebounders. :)

Again- buy one if you want one.
I have not said otherwise. Just adding perspective & background. :)
Denis
 
94's

The market on these were sky-high a couple of years ago, however, as they started to come out of the closet, the prices fell. Even one I have listed is done so way too low compared to others I've seen around NE Texas, but the only ones sniffing are dealer-types wanting far less than value, so they can put it in the store fronts not need a quick turn around.
The market will return.
 
Gas,
It's a mix- many don't like the idea of the classic & quintessential American workingman's rifle being made in the Orient, and the Winchester name is so closely intertwined with the history of the western expansion that it's sacriligious to have it made by any other country. Much more so in that respect than the Browning or Weatherby branding.

how is this different from firearms being made in Belgium (like the older Brownings), Finland or Italy? the jingoistic attitudes towards country of manufacture seem rather one-sided imo. I'm not disagreeing with you on the point about it being sacriligious for Winchester to have the Win 94 made in Japan based on its history in the US, but I think gun owners ought to be more consistent with their arguments. If a brand like Sako took over manufacturing the Win 94 would there be as much outrage?
 
If you simply wanted one of the new copies, buying one of the new 94's would make perfect sense. Personally, I'm into shooters and I can still find clean 94's well under $500.00.

If I wanted a really, really nice one? I'd buy an original and and send it off to Turnbull.

YMMV
 
Gas,
People just have their preferences.

If Colt sent the Peacemaker off to be built in China, it'd kill the gun off.
If they sent it to Japan, pretty much the same.
Some people are even concerned Colt will move the Peacemaker to the new building in Florida. "What? It won't be made in HARTFORD anymore???!!!???"

Tradition can be very powerful in marketing & sales, and some things suffer when messed with. :)

Brownings have never been deeply ingrained in the gun world's conscious & sub-conscious view of American history like Winchesters & Colts.
Some people care where they're made just out of national pride, most couldn't care less as long as the quality's there (and it doesn't say CHINA on it anywhere).
The vast majority of gun buyers don't even know that Browning manufactures exactly none of their products themselves, anyway. :)
Denis
 
If you simply wanted one of the new copies, buying one of the new 94's would make perfect sense. Personally, I'm into shooters and I can still find clean 94's well under $500.00.

if I had a spare $1200 laying around i'd gladly buy a new 94, but that ain't happening anytime soon. as for finding Win 94's for under $500, i've yet to find anything under that amount that didn't look like it was dragged behind a truck. most Win 94's I see on gunbroker are going for $500+. I'm hoping prices will ease up after the election. i've noticed that Win 94 angle-eject models are going for well above $500...in some cases $600 or $700.
 
Gas,
People just have their preferences.

If Colt sent the Peacemaker off to be built in China, it'd kill the gun off.
If they sent it to Japan, pretty much the same.
Some people are even concerned Colt will move the Peacemaker to the new building in Florida. "What? It won't be made in HARTFORD anymore???!!!???"

true but there's a huge difference between manufacturing standards in Japan versus China. I consider Chinese made product junk. I consider Japanese made product high quality. Japan is our economic partner and without them we wouldn't have a lot of the product we see on the shelf. I also consider the Japanese artisans in their own right, so guns being made by Miroku are a stamp of approval for me. it speaks volumes when I prefer a gun made in Japan over a new rifle by Marlin in the US.

Tradition can be very powerful in marketing & sales, and some things suffer when messed with.

Brownings have never been deeply ingrained in the gun world's conscious & sub-conscious view of American history like Winchesters & Colts.
Some people care where they're made just out of national pride, most couldn't care less as long as the quality's there (and it doesn't say CHINA on it anywhere).
The vast majority of gun buyers don't even know that Browning manufactures exactly none of their products themselves, anyway.

this is the crux of the problem though isn't it? i'm guessing that Winchester closed their New Haven shop due to bad sales. if gun owners took pride in where their guns were made surely Winchester would still be a US owned company rather than owned by FN. as for Browning, I assumed the 'made in Japan' stamped onto every Browning barrel was the dead giveaway that they weren't making their guns in the US :D
 
you sure about that? the last time I saw a pre-64 up for auction on gunbroker it went for well over $1200, and it sure as heck wasn't in mint condition. for that kind of money i'd want a pre-64 NIB and unfired.
Seriously? Hmmm.....wonder what my 1957 model 94 would be worth.
 
Seriously? Hmmm.....wonder what my 1957 model 94 would be worth.

i'm quite serious, unless of course the person bidding on the Win 94 was a shill bidder. I usually see less than pristine pre-64's going for around $800 or so. Winchester 9422's seem to fetch about $700-800 these days
 
gaseousclay said:
true but there's a huge difference between manufacturing standards in Japan versus China. I consider Chinese made product junk. I consider Japanese made product high quality. Japan is our economic partner and without them we wouldn't have a lot of the product we see on the shelf. I also consider the Japanese artisans in their own right, so guns being made by Miroku are a stamp of approval for me. it speaks volumes when I prefer a gun made in Japan over a new rifle by Marlin in the US.

I agree, the craftsmen at Miroku would probably rather fall on their swords than bring dishonor on themselves and their ancestors by building junk.

Also, the Japanese have a work ethic that makes the Amish look like a bunch of slackers.
 
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Gas,
I'm not much interested in breaking it down any farther. :)

To some people, point of origin matters. To others it doesn't.

My personal gripe with the current 94 has zero to do with WHERE it's made, my gripe is HOW it's made. :)

FN closed down the New Haven operation because it wasn't profitable. Quality had declined, USRAC was no longer a real company (it was just the plant), machinery was outdated & worn, and it wasn't going where FN thought it should be going.
Denis
 
My 'well under $500...' remark stands. If I want to know the higest prices I can hope to get for any particular firearm, I look on the internet auctions. If I want to buy something for a reasonable price, I 'run my traps' at various pawn shops and hole-in-the-wall gun shops, until I find it. As I said, I am primarily interested in shooters; but I still find decent examples and leave the 'dragged behind a truck' guns lay.
 
Sarge said: "Seriously? Hmmm.....wonder what my 1957 model 94 would be worth."
Gaseousclay said;
"I'm quite serious, unless of course the person bidding on the Win 94 was a shill bidder. I usually see less than pristine pre-64's going for around $800 or so. Winchester 9422's seem to fetch about $700-800 these days."

I'm actually between Gaseousclay and Sarge on this--but probably closer to Sarge for most Pre 64s. Gaseousclay, where is "tundra" - Alaska? That might skew the market/availability a bit? Also different "eras" of Pre 64 can be a factor. Pre War (which is technically Pre 64 but few but some "purist" (in semantics) collectors use it as such, but most give it its own subset) are definitely up there and beyond for decent examples. OTOH, "average" post war--what most consider "Pre 64"--examples can be readily had down in the $500 territory in most (or at least many) markets, and really decent examples beteen that and $750.
Gaseous, like Sarge wondering about his '57, if you're right, I've got some Pre 64s I need to consider selling! A check on local Backpage ads might also give a "closer-to'reality" check on average Pre 64s. As someone else suggested, what some are asking on GB and what they're actually selling for (there or elsewhere) eventually can be two drastically different things. I agree the prices are up in many areas, but not $1,200 (sold) unless it's NIB or darn close (and I may be wrong even about that), not for a late 1940s-1964 gun IMHO.
 
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Looking through the gun library at the Cabelas in Buda, TX, around 1200 is what they seem to want for a common pre war .30-30 with a steel buttplate and a band around the forestock.
Then there's the uncommon configurations and calibers.
They have a capped pistol grip 26" octagonal barrel half magazine takedown model with a metal fore end cap instead of a band and factory checkering on both the pistol grip and forend in .30-30, circa 1921, they are asking $10,999.
 
Gaseous, like Sarge wondering about his '57, if you're right, I've got some Pre 64s I need to consider selling! A check on local Backpage ads might also give a "closer-to'reality" check on average Pre 64s. As someone else suggested, what some are asking on GB and what they're actually selling for (there or elsewhere) eventually can be two drastically different things. I agree the prices are up in many areas, but not $1,200 (sold) unless it's NIB or darn close (and I may be wrong even about that), not for a late 1940s-1964 gun IMHO.

the $1200+ price point I came across was through gunbroker and this was over a month ago...maybe two months. I thought the whole thing was suspicious and I would be inclined to agree with you that for $1200 I'd expect a pristine NIB pre-64 and nothing less. I think a more realistic price for a like-new pre-64 might be around the $700-800 range. I guess auction sites aren't really a good place to determine fair prices on Win 94's, as most of them are overpriced, especially the post 64 variants.
 
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