New trend. SA striker fired guns with no manaul safety

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I hear you. For a long time I carried a 1911 with a nice very crisp trigger and manual safety. Later I switched to an M&Pc with 6.5lb trigger and no safety. I would not carry the 1911without the safety on, and just accept the heavier trigger pull for carrying without a safety.
 
Trust no one, especially not a mechanical devise.
I was trying out a striker designed pistol that was supposed to have a mag safety.
You know, the kind that won't fire a round in the chamber when the mag isn't in place.
So I removed the mag to see, and it fired.
So much for trying to protect ourselves from ourselves.
 
marine6680 said:
I am not opposed to the pistols...

But he has a point on many of the newer designs, and the M&P being... In effect... SA triggers.

They do have more takeup and total trigger travel than traditional SA pistols using a hammer, but are mechanically similar in function internally.


On the Glock, the slide cocks the striker only partially, maybe 50% give or take. Then the trigger physically moves the striker back the rest of the distance before release. I tend to call this a partially cocked DA.


On pistols like the M&P, HK, and others the striker is held by a sear, that rotates out of the way, the striker sits at its full rearward travel point when at rest in the normal shooting configuration. The PPQ uses a weird falling sear like arrangement, but is in effect the same as the rotating sears.

Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial DA.

Now they all have drop safeties, and longer trigger pulls to help increase safety... So I have no problems with them myself... My carry guns are M&Ps of various models.


Its just that from a pure mechanical standpoint, of how the striker is released... They are in effect SA. The new Canik even puts it on the side of the slide... "SA"

So yeah... There is not a really good cut and dry "this much movement is required for DA" definition... I look at it like this.

If the trigger can draw the hammer (or striker) to the rear and fire the pistol, when said hammer (or striker) is in a fully relaxed state... Then it is a DA. (Example being a S&W SD series, or the Walther P99 which is DA/SA)

If the trigger will not draw the mechanism back from a full rest position, and relies on slide movement to reset the mechanism to a firing state, but the mechanism is not sitting at a position, that should it be released from that point, can reliably ignite a primer... Then it is a partial cock/tension mechanism. (examples being a Glock and the FNS)

If the action requires the slide motion to ready the pistol to fire, and the final position is one that could reliably ignite a primer, should it fall from that point, then it is a SA trigger... A rotating or dropping sear is pretty much a give away of this type. (Examples being an M&P or Springfield XD)

Even if some minor camming is present, that being less than a few percent of the total travel distance. (example, the noticeable hammer camming of a CZ75 in SA mode)
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Great description!

This is why I think the SD9VE is the best gun for a beginning shooter. The DAO trigger lets the shooter learn trigger control in a safe way....not unlike a DA revolver. It's a forgiving learning curve. SA triggers like the VP9 & XD are better saved for more experienced shooters. Glocks are in a middle place. With a NY trigger, they come close to the SD9VE. As is, I put them closer to SA than DAO.

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Just came from the gunshop. I looked at the Ruger American. They had one with the manual safety and one without. They are total SA guns. There is no way they can be described any other way. I also looked at the new Remington striker fired 9mm. It is the same. Both guns are total SA designs. Does not matter much to me if one likes SA or DA or DAO nothing changes the fact that these guns are SA.
 
The SD9VE is possibly the best buy in a handgun you can find. They are as good and as reliable as many other guns costing much more.
 
I personally like a trigger to be 5-6lb for defense use... No lighter, but a little heavier is fine if the trigger is otherwise good.

I do feel the partial tension system on pistols like the Glock and FNS are probably the overall safest of the modern manual safetyless striker pistols, excluding some true DAO designs... But they are not the only ones I feel are suitably safe for defense use.

For me, the light crisp 5.5lb trigger on my PPQ is fine... I don't feel it is unsafe. The total trigger pull is long enough, I feel, to be safe should you be mindful of proper techniques and reholstering procedures.

A sig 320 has a pretty short take up before the break, some might say too short, but all the ones I have felt are 6.5-7lb out of the box. Which I think helps maintain an acceptable level of safety.

The VP9 has less overall travel than a PPQ and more than the 320, and is about the shortest i would want on a defensive pistol, with a relatively light and crisp trigger. Out of the box though, they are not as light and crisp as a PPQ. So I feel they are safe if you follow the rules as mentioned above...


It comes down to a combination of factors for me, on whether I feel a given trigger is acceptable and safe... Balancing out good pull with margin for safety.

It's the same reason it bugs me to no end when people want to put in light 4lb single stage triggers in a defensive AR, or even a 4-4.5lb two stage. I use the same 5-6lb range for an AR, and preferably a two stage over a single stage... Or a decent milspec trigger


As far as a manual safety... They are only as good as the user, same as any striker pistol without a safety.

If you fail to properly use the safety, you can be arguably less safe than with a striker pistol minus a safety.

Modern doctrine has you swipe off a manual safety on the draw, so it's not like it's going to be any help preventing a stray trigger finger from pulling the trigger prematurely.


In the end it is up to the user to be safe, and no mechanical safety is able to prevent every or any given act of negligence.

Any gun capable of being made ready to fire, can also be fired unintentionally.

So long as the given firearm is designed well, and is mechanically sound and safe... And the trigger function can allow for some level of a margin of error... I am fine with it.


I will add, that proper training, knowledge, and adherence to safety rules is very important regardless of firearm design, but some are less tolerant of lapses than others.
 
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Seeker two said, "Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial D"

That is correct. Positive sear engagement. The majority of SA guns of all types have this feature to some degree. Some have it to the degree that it can be seen, such as the CZ75 and some to the point it can not be seen. My Mossberg shotgun and the military trigger on the AR15 is like that.
 
The Ruger American I looked at today no matter how slowly you pulled the trigger I could not see any rearward movement of the striker. The sear drops and releases the striker. Any positive sear engagement that it may have can not be felt or seen. On my XD you can see this to some degree just a few thousands of an inch. About like the M&P
 
This is silly.

There is ZERO functional difference between the M&P and the Glock. They are neither Single Action, nor Double Action, they are Striker Fired.

The M&P and the Glock both exist in a 90% cocked state and the trigger cocks the last 10% and then........ sweet release.

Both have the same approximate trigger pull weight. Both have trigger safeties, drop safeties, the XD adds a grip safety but is otherwise the same.

As far as SAFE carry goes, I carry a P-Series SIG so I favor the DA/SA system and ride the hammer into the holster. It's demonstrably safer than a Striker Fired gun with the possible exception of the XD which one can relax their grip and disengage the grip safety on re-holstering.

But no gun is 100% safe as you know. Operator error will always be a greater danger than whatever gun design you prefer.
 
Now that is clear to some but where do we draw the line about how light the trigger can be before the guns needs a manual safety? How many of you would carry a pistol with no manual safety with a 2lb trigger? Even though the gun is designed where it is basically impossible to fire without a trigger pull?
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As far as I'm concerned this borders on a strawman argument. None of the pistols you mentioned have 2 lb. triggers. I get this is hyperbole to illustrate a point, but the fact that you need hyperbole to make that point is to me what makes this argument a non-starter. You argue that the pull weights and travel lengths of these other pistols are dramatically different than say a Glock, and it seems Glocks are okay to you in that regard. I've owned all the pistols you mentioned sans the RP9 and American and I honestly don't think the difference is that dramatic. I have felt modified triggers that were getting close to what you mention, but not factory triggers. All of the breaks on those pistols were discernible to me and felt deliberate.

For a long time I carried DA/SA pistols because of the notion that it provided an extra margin of "safety" over say a striker fired pistol. I can tell you that in the force on force training I've done all the pistols were DA/SA or DAK simply because that was the configuration of the UTM pistols. I don't remember the trigger pulls at all. The weight of that trigger pull was in no way noticeable and despite having good hand strength that wasn't because I'm overly strong. Once the decision to press that trigger was made that was it and the trigger travel and pull weight were not stopping me once I made that commitment. Which brings me to this:

One time in my life I had to point my gun at another human being. Despite a lot of experience and training when it hits the fan you are not the calm and cool person you are on the range. I was lucky I did not have to shoot this nut case. He was quickly brought under control by someone else. There is a good possibility I would have accidently shot this man if I had been packing a gun with such a light trigger.
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I'd rather people be trained not to have their fingers on the trigger while holding someone at bay as it sounds like you were doing. I get that it's hard to fight the impulse especially under stress, but even with a heavier trigger it's a very dangerous habit. On the pistols you've mentioned so far (again I haven't owned an RP9 or Ruger American though I have handled the American) I do not feel that I would just place my finger on the trigger and have it discharge without noticing the pressure required.
 
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I think that was me that said that joe. :p

And disseminator... You are objectively wrong in how you are describing an M&P... And partially wrong on the Glock. I believe S&W claims it as higher than 90%, but even if they do claim 90%, it's more than that in actual real out of box pistols.


And training... Training... Training...

No pistol is safe if you use it unsafely. And no pistol in immune to improper use.

The argument on DA, SA, DAO is more academic than anything else at this point.

I know what I am comfortable with, and what I am not.
 
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Flame suit activated.

Seriously tho Glocks (cock to 80% or whatever), mp, xd, kahrs, and whatever else if you cant have the striker cock and fire without running the slide and resetting it it isn't a DAO.

the definition of double action is: (of a gun) able to be cocked and fired in one single action.

Only striker gun ive seen do this is my CZ100 and I think one of the poly sigs and the taurus "second strike" nonsense? if you need to cycle the slide to reset a dead trigger that not a DA. safe action, partially cocked action, whatever, but its not a double action. It can be marketed as whatever they want doesn't mean its correct. Some of them have long smooth pulls to simulate a DA trigger.
 
And disseminator... You are objectively wrong in how you are describing an M&P... And partially wrong on the Glock. I believe S&W claims it as higher than 90%, but even if they do claim 90%, it's more than that in actual real out of box pistols.
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In what way am I wrong? Calling one Single Action and one Double Action because the geometry of their operation differs is silly.

They are designed to function on the same premise and essentially they are the same. Mind you that I'm not arguing one is better than the other, I own examples of both brands and have completely disassembled and reassembled them both.

In my mind, the slight differences do not merit a different classification of these actions.
 
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Glocks are not SA
It sure feels like one to me. It definitely doesn't feel like the long trigger on my revolvers.
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You are both right.
1) mechanically, SA is classed as something different (ie the trigger pull does not create some of the spring pressure to hit the primer).
2) operationally, they are the same. Both fire the weapon with one pull of the trigger.
 
A single action trigger pull releases an already precocked hammer or striker. A DA trigger pull both cocks the hammer or striker and releases it..Pretty simple
 
And to whom it may concern no matter if you have been trained or trained yourself to keep your finger off the trigger when you meet a nut who tells you he has a .357 in his coat pocket and he intends to use it you will put your finger on the trigger when you see him reach into his coat pocket. The idiot pulled his car keys out of his pocket at the same exact time by buddy knocked him down. I had already started taking the slack out of my Glock trigger. Most of us would have done the same
 
Generalizations to all from what you would do, are not worth much to describing all.
Also, mischaracterization of trigger mechanisms to suit your view doesn't contribute much.

Don't buy the gun if it offends you. If others train up to use them as many have, then your fears don't buy us much new insight. Trolling about Glocks and strikers, yet again and over and over, kind of a waste of time.
 
A single action trigger pull releases an already precocked hammer or striker. A DA trigger pull both cocks the hammer or striker and releases it..Pretty simple
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Except the amount of cocking finished by the trigger press becomes the matter of debate. Is 90% cocked SA? What about 80%? Even Glock has a partial cock and most of the other pistols still have some camming of the sear that also finishes cocking the striker. Is that little bit at the end enough to count as DA? What percentage of precock do we call SA? It's not really as clear cut as you want to make it seem.

And to whom it may concern no matter if you have been trained or trained yourself to keep your finger off the trigger when you meet a nut who tells you he has a .357 in his coat pocket and he intends to use it you will put your finger on the trigger when you see him reach into his coat pocket. The idiot pulled his car keys out of his pocket at the same exact time by buddy knocked him down. I had already started taking the slack out of my Glock trigger. Most of us would have done the same
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Would I draw a firearm in that case? Most likely, although from my understanding of the law (which is limited) you may have just committed assault by drawing on him if the only evidence you had at that point was a verbal threat. Would I make all conscious effort to keep my finger off the trigger until I've decided to fire, much less actually seen a firearm? Absolutely. Because as you just stated he pulled out keys not a gun. Could it have been a gun? Absolutely. But it could also be bluster and nothing else. Prepping the trigger on a Glock before you actually know you need to discharge the firearm is not a good idea and frankly not needed when you've drawn the other guy dead. If you had gone a bit too far as your buddy tackled him you could have shot your buddy.

I already stated above I understand the realities of actually accomplishing perfect trigger finger discipline under stress and it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback when you can play everything in slow motion (though there is value in doing your own AAR). My response was then and is now that the weight and trigger travel of those pistols you mentioned is not so light that merely touching them will set them off, ala the 2 lb. trigger you used as your argument. They may have less travel or less weight in the press than the Glock, but I still disagree that the difference is so dramatic as to somehow make Glocks safe and them not.
 
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A big danger IMHO is during holstering, especially when wearing a conceal carry holster. I never had a discharge but sure came close once when I carried a glock (shirt got caught on the trigger).

For conceal carry at a minimum I would only suggest a striker fired pistol with a safety (disengage safety during draw), or an exposed hammer pistol DA only or DA/SA with a decocker (push down on the hammer while holstering). A 1911 should be fine as well but I never quite felt totally comfortable with one.

I just bought a new m&p shield 9mm (with safety) and it doesn't take much travel to fire the trigger. Definitely would make *me* nervous without a safety.

For open carry (pls use holster like safariland als, etc), range work, hunting, quick safe gun, etc, it's not as big of a deal.
 
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