New trend. SA striker fired guns with no manaul safety
- Thread starter polaris joe
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bedbugbilly
New member
The safety is the operator and common sense to keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire - which is one of the first things any shooter should know whether it be pistol, rifle or shotgun. Common sense dictates that it is wise to carry in a holster which covers the entire trigger area so that it can't be accidentally "snagged".
I'm guessing that you are advocating that pistols should all have safeties and they should be "on" until you are ready to shoot? And I'm not trying to be difficult or cantankerous.
I have been shooting for over 50 years - revolver and semi-auto. I CCW both revolvers and semi-autos depending on where I'm going. I once had a 1911A-1 Colt and I trained myself to "sweep" the safety but that was on the 1911 platform. I no longer will carry a semi-auto for SD purposes with the safety on - in a SD situation, I want my side arm to have one in the tube and be ready to fire if necessary without worrying about getting flustered and not being able to fire due to forgetting to sweep the safety off.
I have had some very good training throughout the years as have many or most on here. But even the best training will not prepare you for the stress you will experience if you get in to a SD situation - and yes, I do know what it is like to be there and be shot at.
So, that is why you train until it is a natural instinct to keep that @#$# finger off the trigger until you are ready to pull it. I would have no issues in carrying what you describe your concerns are about. But, if it bothers you, then you need to make the decision as to what you are comfortable with - and then go with that platform.
Not trying to start an argument - just agreeing to disagree in regards to what you view as a problem or disagree with. And, whether a "new" shooter or an "experienced" shooter - until a person is completely familiar with the weapon that they are carrying and have some extensive range time with it to "learn" the handgun - they shouldn't be carrying it.
I'm guessing that you are advocating that pistols should all have safeties and they should be "on" until you are ready to shoot? And I'm not trying to be difficult or cantankerous.
I have been shooting for over 50 years - revolver and semi-auto. I CCW both revolvers and semi-autos depending on where I'm going. I once had a 1911A-1 Colt and I trained myself to "sweep" the safety but that was on the 1911 platform. I no longer will carry a semi-auto for SD purposes with the safety on - in a SD situation, I want my side arm to have one in the tube and be ready to fire if necessary without worrying about getting flustered and not being able to fire due to forgetting to sweep the safety off.
I have had some very good training throughout the years as have many or most on here. But even the best training will not prepare you for the stress you will experience if you get in to a SD situation - and yes, I do know what it is like to be there and be shot at.
So, that is why you train until it is a natural instinct to keep that @#$# finger off the trigger until you are ready to pull it. I would have no issues in carrying what you describe your concerns are about. But, if it bothers you, then you need to make the decision as to what you are comfortable with - and then go with that platform.
Not trying to start an argument - just agreeing to disagree in regards to what you view as a problem or disagree with. And, whether a "new" shooter or an "experienced" shooter - until a person is completely familiar with the weapon that they are carrying and have some extensive range time with it to "learn" the handgun - they shouldn't be carrying it.
Jim Watson
New member
There have been some people unwilling to carry a PPQ because of its light trigger.
But you don't get to approve their choice, joe.
But you don't get to approve their choice, joe.
sigarms228
New member
There are a lot of shooters that would never carry a Glock either because they want a safety or a pistol with a long and heavy DA first trigger pull or even for every pull.
Lots of misconception. Honestly calling a lot of striker pistols SA is a fallacy. There are a few that are SA, however they don't have super light,zero take-up, 1911 like triggers either. No modern main stream pistol, IMO, lacks any in mechanical safety features. Especially as litigious as modern America has become. If there is a safety design flaw, we will hear of it quickly enough.
Sorry, but no. The M&P and Ruger are DAO. And if not having a safety is a problem for you Smith and Ruger offer their guns with or without a safety.
FWIW I actually like the option of a thumb safety and may well end up with a Ruger American with the safety. I already own a LC9S with a safety and wouldn't mind if Glocks had them. I'd always have the option to use it or not just like on the Ruger and Smith's.
On the other hand, the Glock and all other striker fired guns without a safety are perfectly safe as long as carried in a proper holster. The only time I'm uncomfortable with them are when used as nightstand guns or in a vehicle when not in a holster. I just won't use a Glock in that manner with a loaded chamber.
Jim Watson
New member
I don't know about the Ruger but the Plastic M&P has no more striker movement by trigger pull than a full cocked CZ75 which has the worst hammer camback I have seen.
Of course a "trigger job" removes the camming action of striker and hammer in both of those guns.
straightshooterjake
New member
Personally, I am comfortable with guns that have a minimum 5 lb trigger pull, modern internal drop safety systems, and a fair amount of trigger pre-travel to clear the drop safety. I do not feel that these handguns need a manual thumb safety, and the markets seem to agree with me on this point. For my own use, I prefer about a 6 lb trigger. And for duty use, I would not modify any of these guns to have a trigger pull lighter than the factory weight.
I believe the question of single action vs double action is largely an issue of semantics and definitions. I am not aware of a specific definition that states how much the striker spring can be pre-cocked and still have the pistol be considered double action. For this reason, I have changed the terminology I use, and I now call this whole class of pistols "modern striker fired." I used to call these guns "striker fired double action only," but on some of these guns the trigger pull does not cock the striker a meaningful amount, so DAO does not really apply.
I have looked very closely at the internal fire controls of the Smith & Wesson M&P line, and I would consider them single action if I was going to use one of those names. However, I prefer to call them "modern striker fired," since I think their safety and function is very comparable to a Glock, and I would be comfortable carrying either one.
I believe the question of single action vs double action is largely an issue of semantics and definitions. I am not aware of a specific definition that states how much the striker spring can be pre-cocked and still have the pistol be considered double action. For this reason, I have changed the terminology I use, and I now call this whole class of pistols "modern striker fired." I used to call these guns "striker fired double action only," but on some of these guns the trigger pull does not cock the striker a meaningful amount, so DAO does not really apply.
I have looked very closely at the internal fire controls of the Smith & Wesson M&P line, and I would consider them single action if I was going to use one of those names. However, I prefer to call them "modern striker fired," since I think their safety and function is very comparable to a Glock, and I would be comfortable carrying either one.
The biggest bag of BS new novice shooters have been sold is the "It's got 41 redundant passive safeties, a manual safety will get you killed" BS. So the woman or Guy that's never owned a firearm before, never set foot in the field, never learned not to shoot the dog and instead the rabbit.Never had it drilled in their head over and over and over again about finger on the trigger, muzzle pointed away from everyone, never spent the first 7 years of their shooting career with a mentor. Most have never spent 100's or 1000's of hours with a firearm in their hand, probably never really learned the basics. Instead they kinda remember hearing something about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction during a 30 second droning voice from an "instructor" that went in one ear, and out the other while dreaming about Starbucks or posting to Snap chat their newest plastic pistol. An hour shooting wax bullets (maybe) and they have their CHP.
They take that pistol stuff it down their pants in a plastic holster not knowing anything about how the trigger works other than you put your finger here. Or mabye she tosses it in a purse with all the other trash and forgets about it.
Sometime several months later they may go to the range and try and remember how to load, and shoot it. May or may not remember not to cover folks with the muzzle. May or may not know how to disassemble and clean their firearm.
The sad news is a few end up shooting themselves in the leg, letting their kid find the gun and shooting someone, or leaving their gun in the walmart restroom. Sad truth is my kids at 8 or 9 were more prepared to carry a firearm than 80% of the folks out there.
Only after addressing inexperience can we actually have a conversation about the slab sided auto and if they're "safe" or not. All the silly BS about if the striker gun is SA, DA or DAO or partially cocked, or decocked or is light, too light, or has creep is just dancing around the real question of manual safety or not.
They take that pistol stuff it down their pants in a plastic holster not knowing anything about how the trigger works other than you put your finger here. Or mabye she tosses it in a purse with all the other trash and forgets about it.
Sometime several months later they may go to the range and try and remember how to load, and shoot it. May or may not remember not to cover folks with the muzzle. May or may not know how to disassemble and clean their firearm.
The sad news is a few end up shooting themselves in the leg, letting their kid find the gun and shooting someone, or leaving their gun in the walmart restroom. Sad truth is my kids at 8 or 9 were more prepared to carry a firearm than 80% of the folks out there.
Only after addressing inexperience can we actually have a conversation about the slab sided auto and if they're "safe" or not. All the silly BS about if the striker gun is SA, DA or DAO or partially cocked, or decocked or is light, too light, or has creep is just dancing around the real question of manual safety or not.
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seeker_two
New member
Has the "Glock Leg" syndrome popped up in the newer striker-fired pistols like the VP9, PPQ, etc?.....
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marine6680
New member
I am not opposed to the pistols...
But he has a point on many of the newer designs, and the M&P being... In effect... SA triggers.
They do have more takeup and total trigger travel than traditional SA pistols using a hammer, but are mechanically similar in function internally.
On the Glock, the slide cocks the striker only partially, maybe 50% give or take. Then the trigger physically moves the striker back the rest of the distance before release. I tend to call this a partially cocked DA.
On pistols like the M&P, HK, and others the striker is held by a sear, that rotates out of the way, the striker sits at its full rearward travel point when at rest in the normal shooting configuration. The PPQ uses a weird falling sear like arrangement, but is in effect the same as the rotating sears.
Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial DA.
Now they all have drop safeties, and longer trigger pulls to help increase safety... So I have no problems with them myself... My carry guns are M&Ps of various models.
Its just that from a pure mechanical standpoint, of how the striker is released... They are in effect SA. The new Canik even puts it on the side of the slide... "SA"
So yeah... There is not a really good cut and dry "this much movement is required for DA" definition... I look at it like this.
If the trigger can draw the hammer (or striker) to the rear and fire the pistol, when said hammer (or striker) is in a fully relaxed state... Then it is a DA. (Example being a S&W SD series, or the Walther P99 which is DA/SA)
If the trigger will not draw the mechanism back from a full rest position, and relies on slide movement to reset the mechanism to a firing state, but the mechanism is not sitting at a position, that should it be released from that point, can reliably ignite a primer... Then it is a partial cock/tension mechanism. (examples being a Glock and the FNS)
If the action requires the slide motion to ready the pistol to fire, and the final position is one that could reliably ignite a primer, should it fall from that point, then it is a SA trigger... A rotating or dropping sear is pretty much a give away of this type. (Examples being an M&P or Springfield XD)
Even if some minor camming is present, that being less than a few percent of the total travel distance. (example, the noticeable hammer camming of a CZ75 in SA mode)
But he has a point on many of the newer designs, and the M&P being... In effect... SA triggers.
They do have more takeup and total trigger travel than traditional SA pistols using a hammer, but are mechanically similar in function internally.
On the Glock, the slide cocks the striker only partially, maybe 50% give or take. Then the trigger physically moves the striker back the rest of the distance before release. I tend to call this a partially cocked DA.
On pistols like the M&P, HK, and others the striker is held by a sear, that rotates out of the way, the striker sits at its full rearward travel point when at rest in the normal shooting configuration. The PPQ uses a weird falling sear like arrangement, but is in effect the same as the rotating sears.
Any rearward travel that the strikers have in these pistols, is minor, and more akin to positive sear engagement than DA, or even partial DA.
Now they all have drop safeties, and longer trigger pulls to help increase safety... So I have no problems with them myself... My carry guns are M&Ps of various models.
Its just that from a pure mechanical standpoint, of how the striker is released... They are in effect SA. The new Canik even puts it on the side of the slide... "SA"
So yeah... There is not a really good cut and dry "this much movement is required for DA" definition... I look at it like this.
If the trigger can draw the hammer (or striker) to the rear and fire the pistol, when said hammer (or striker) is in a fully relaxed state... Then it is a DA. (Example being a S&W SD series, or the Walther P99 which is DA/SA)
If the trigger will not draw the mechanism back from a full rest position, and relies on slide movement to reset the mechanism to a firing state, but the mechanism is not sitting at a position, that should it be released from that point, can reliably ignite a primer... Then it is a partial cock/tension mechanism. (examples being a Glock and the FNS)
If the action requires the slide motion to ready the pistol to fire, and the final position is one that could reliably ignite a primer, should it fall from that point, then it is a SA trigger... A rotating or dropping sear is pretty much a give away of this type. (Examples being an M&P or Springfield XD)
Even if some minor camming is present, that being less than a few percent of the total travel distance. (example, the noticeable hammer camming of a CZ75 in SA mode)
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Joe, I'm going to agree with you. Flame suit on!
Gun companies make guns for police and the civilian market. Police want cheap reliable guns of plastic and low cost parts like a Glock. They will plan to train and policy out issues like no safety.
Civilians are posting everyday. We say, gimme
1) lighter triggers
2) smoother pull
3) less creep
4) no safety
5) more capacity
6) ready to use
What would you make? They are making what is asked.
When was the last, "my ppq feels unsafe". My experienced buddy sold his PPQ because he could not train out the occasional pre-sight picture bullet. The rounds went down range, but often by muscle memory only! Call that safe?
Gun companies make guns for police and the civilian market. Police want cheap reliable guns of plastic and low cost parts like a Glock. They will plan to train and policy out issues like no safety.
Civilians are posting everyday. We say, gimme
1) lighter triggers
2) smoother pull
3) less creep
4) no safety
5) more capacity
6) ready to use
What would you make? They are making what is asked.
When was the last, "my ppq feels unsafe". My experienced buddy sold his PPQ because he could not train out the occasional pre-sight picture bullet. The rounds went down range, but often by muscle memory only! Call that safe?
polaris joe
New member
OK it seems that at least some of you do understand the simple concept of SA. Now that is clear to some but where do we draw the line about how light the trigger can be before the guns needs a manual safety? How many of you would carry a pistol with no manual safety with a 2lb trigger? Even though the gun is designed where it is basically impossible to fire without a trigger pull?
polaris joe
New member
The Ruger American is a SA pistol..
polaris joe
New member
I used to carry a 1911. It had a 4.5lb crisp trigger. About 99% of the time it was cocked and locked. Had more than one person that did not know much about guns tell me I was an idiot for carrying a cocked pistol. Years ago some police depts. would not allow their people to carry a single action gun. The M&P is called a DAO to make some people feel better. But a quick look at how the gun functions tells us it is a SA. There is nothing wrong with the M&P. They are fine guns. I would never buy one simply because S&W flat out lies about the gun calling it DAO. No matter if some people are right or wrong in their fear of SA guns they should not be lied to about how the gun functions. I own an XD. It is a SA design. The grip safety makes me feel better about carrying it. I also carry a Glock. I had the chance to get a H&K VP9 at a very good price. I passed. I was offered a chance to take it home for a couple of days and try it out before I bought it. It shot so well it was amazing. One of the reasons for that was the light crisp SA trigger. It was just too light for an everyday carry gun. I am an experienced shooter with a lot of training but I worry about some people without a lot of experience carrying guns like that and considering the fact that some of these released recently have even shorter and lighter triggers makes it worse.
polaris joe
New member
zincwarrior
New member
This is a multi decade "trend." Whether "SA" or "DA" it just amounts to a trigger pull without a manual safety.
Good procedures and very good holsters are the key to safety.
EDIT: some may desire a manual safety as they don't trust the setup. That is fine and a time honored tradition. Others believe good practices and kydex provide the needed level of safety. That is also fine and a time honored tradition.
Shoot what you are comfortable with. For the military an police, well I would not presume to make their decisions for them, although I may criticize them personally.
Good procedures and very good holsters are the key to safety.
EDIT: some may desire a manual safety as they don't trust the setup. That is fine and a time honored tradition. Others believe good practices and kydex provide the needed level of safety. That is also fine and a time honored tradition.
Shoot what you are comfortable with. For the military an police, well I would not presume to make their decisions for them, although I may criticize them personally.
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It is an interesting topic and there is a trend towards light, crisp striker triggers with very little travel (after take up). Personally, when I tried them at the store, I felt the PPQ, VP9 and 320 were a little lighter "feeling" than I preferred in a carry gun (Im not going to bother getting into the semantics battle of what is a "true" SA trigger or not).
Now, I like Glocks, carry Glocks and am used to and proficient with their trigger, so that is my comparison. Could I adjust to a PPQ, be proficient and safe with a little range/dry fire time? Yes, safe handling is a skill to practice constantly, regardless of platform (I do carry Glocks appendix, afterall, not much room for complacency there).
So, are they lighter triggers? Yeah. Thats what the consumer wants. Are they for me? Not at this time.
Now, I like Glocks, carry Glocks and am used to and proficient with their trigger, so that is my comparison. Could I adjust to a PPQ, be proficient and safe with a little range/dry fire time? Yes, safe handling is a skill to practice constantly, regardless of platform (I do carry Glocks appendix, afterall, not much room for complacency there).
So, are they lighter triggers? Yeah. Thats what the consumer wants. Are they for me? Not at this time.
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