illinois state rifle association has something on this now on their website.
http://www.isra.org/
http://www.isra.org/
New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes
- Thread starter BryanP
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Edward429451
Moderator
So after seeing the military walk up on private citizens doors with m4's ready...other citizens have to ask themselves what would you do?
You've only got two choices as I see it.
Comply, be disarmed, and left to fend for yourself. (which in my mind would hurt the country more by carving in stone the fact that they can do it, we will comply, and give them free reign to do it again even faster.)
Or resist, shoot through the door. (You would probably certainly die, but at least have stood up for something and possibly pave the way for getting the country back to where it should be.)
Some choice huh?
Armed Mexican soldiers are allegedly in Texas. IF thats true then one would have to ask why. IF its true, my first thought would be that they'll wind up in NO to assist in the 'clean up' of stubborn citizens, err I mean terrorists & looters, and give the gubmint plausable deniability to abuses by being able to blame the abuses off on the 'isolated incicdents' of Mexican peacekeepers.
Any Texan TFL'ers see any Mexican troop activity firsthand?
You've only got two choices as I see it.
Comply, be disarmed, and left to fend for yourself. (which in my mind would hurt the country more by carving in stone the fact that they can do it, we will comply, and give them free reign to do it again even faster.)
Or resist, shoot through the door. (You would probably certainly die, but at least have stood up for something and possibly pave the way for getting the country back to where it should be.)
Some choice huh?
Armed Mexican soldiers are allegedly in Texas. IF thats true then one would have to ask why. IF its true, my first thought would be that they'll wind up in NO to assist in the 'clean up' of stubborn citizens, err I mean terrorists & looters, and give the gubmint plausable deniability to abuses by being able to blame the abuses off on the 'isolated incicdents' of Mexican peacekeepers.
Any Texan TFL'ers see any Mexican troop activity firsthand?
I would suspect that if one lost all, what would one have to lose. But those that do resist I would suspect that they would be lost in the statistics. Casualty of the storm…. End of story, to be forgotten in the sands of time. I also understand people with cameras are being removed from the city. Criminals like Governments sometimes like to do their mischief in the dark. So now that the rapist and looters are gone I guess its time for the Government rapist and looters to take over. I’m not sure what I would do in their case. First I think I would have left before the storm and the situation degraded to what it is now, but I consider the Governments actions unlawful and probably I would resist to my dying breath and my demise and the demise of others.
XavierBreath
New member
Think practical.....subversive......like a guerilla..........
"Yesuh Ophiser, I got this here Savage .22 rifle an' ain't nobody gonna take it......
........except maybe you..........." 
"Y'all come back when you can now, hear?"
Now go back to your 12 gauge.
Removal of the cameras is a very ominous sign.......... is there a source for that?
Edward429451
Moderator
Thats a nice thought and may even work for people who aren't deep into guns, with mass gun trinkets, reloading equipment, and the like. After you surrender the Savage, you're disarmed and with at least a half dozen militery types in the house...who can be expected to continue the search, yes?
http://www.canada.com/fortstjohn/story.html?id=93d36401-0e49-4030-9bb8-77e557a2b7f8
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050908112000349
more?
I believe the official statement is no cameras allowed out of respect for the dead... (or maybe soon to be)
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050908112000349
more?
I believe the official statement is no cameras allowed out of respect for the dead... (or maybe soon to be)
Rich Lucibella
Staff
We have got to find a Party of Standing or organization willing to challenge this action by application for Emergency Injunction. I'm in for a sizable contribution.
People are gonna start dying over this....good people on both sides of the "thin blue or camo line"....and all hell is gonna break loose.
Rich
People are gonna start dying over this....good people on both sides of the "thin blue or camo line"....and all hell is gonna break loose.
Rich
NRA Response
Numerous media sources are reporting on an apparent campaign by New Orleans city authorities to confiscate lawfully-owned firearms from people in the city. Louisiana statute does grant the government, during a state of emergency, broad powers in regulating and controlling firearms.
However, we have seen not just with Hurricane Katrina, but other similar situations, that when police are unable to control the criminal element, people turn to the one freedom that protects all others-the Second Amendment.
While one can certainly understand the dire predicaments of all those affected by Hurricane Katrina, as we have learned throughout history, campaigns to disarm the lawful do nothing to disarm the criminal. And in truth, these restrictions make citizens less safe. Despite the valiant efforts of many law enforcement officers and rescue workers, too many of those left in the wake of Katrina are ultimately responsible for their own security and safety and that of their families and loved ones; especially when communication is virtually non-existent and police can't be quickly summoned to respond to calls for help. At these times, lawful gun ownership is paramount to personal safety.
Of course, the entire situation in New Orleans is constantly in flux. But rest assured NRA is monitoring this situation very closely and will address any activity by the government that unduly infringes upon the rights of lawful gun owners at the appropriate time. As we learn more, we will report to our members accordingly. In the interim, however, we join with all Americans in offering our thoughts, prayers, and assistance to the victims and survivors of this terrible natural disaster.
Sincerely,
Katrina Ruminski
NRA-ILA
Contact Information
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
First Name:
Last Name:
Address:
City:
State: TN
Zip:
Phone:
Fax:
Membership Number:
Email:
comments:
_________________________________
Gentlmen:
I am both a member of the NRA and a certified instructor. I have supported the NRA for several years already.
I see reported that New Orleans is now confiscating citizens' firearms, in violation of the state constitution as well as the U.S. Constitution.
What will the NRA's response be? If the organization does not speak out now to preserve rights then it will have lost all legitimacy and its very raison d'etre. I cannot conceive of a more dire need for protest at this police action.
Sincerely,
xxxxxx
Numerous media sources are reporting on an apparent campaign by New Orleans city authorities to confiscate lawfully-owned firearms from people in the city. Louisiana statute does grant the government, during a state of emergency, broad powers in regulating and controlling firearms.
However, we have seen not just with Hurricane Katrina, but other similar situations, that when police are unable to control the criminal element, people turn to the one freedom that protects all others-the Second Amendment.
While one can certainly understand the dire predicaments of all those affected by Hurricane Katrina, as we have learned throughout history, campaigns to disarm the lawful do nothing to disarm the criminal. And in truth, these restrictions make citizens less safe. Despite the valiant efforts of many law enforcement officers and rescue workers, too many of those left in the wake of Katrina are ultimately responsible for their own security and safety and that of their families and loved ones; especially when communication is virtually non-existent and police can't be quickly summoned to respond to calls for help. At these times, lawful gun ownership is paramount to personal safety.
Of course, the entire situation in New Orleans is constantly in flux. But rest assured NRA is monitoring this situation very closely and will address any activity by the government that unduly infringes upon the rights of lawful gun owners at the appropriate time. As we learn more, we will report to our members accordingly. In the interim, however, we join with all Americans in offering our thoughts, prayers, and assistance to the victims and survivors of this terrible natural disaster.
Sincerely,
Katrina Ruminski
NRA-ILA
Contact Information
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
First Name:
Last Name:
Address:
City:
State: TN
Zip:
Phone:
Fax:
Membership Number:
Email:
comments:
_________________________________
Gentlmen:
I am both a member of the NRA and a certified instructor. I have supported the NRA for several years already.
I see reported that New Orleans is now confiscating citizens' firearms, in violation of the state constitution as well as the U.S. Constitution.
What will the NRA's response be? If the organization does not speak out now to preserve rights then it will have lost all legitimacy and its very raison d'etre. I cannot conceive of a more dire need for protest at this police action.
Sincerely,
xxxxxx
progunner1957
Moderator
JPFO alert regarding gun confiscation in New Orleans
Jews For the Protection of Firearms Ownership, www.jpfo.org has posted the following alert regarding the police state that has been established in the devastated city of New Orleans.
September 9, 2005
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TRUTH,
DON'T READ THIS ALERT!
"Police Begin Seizing Guns of Civilians - Local police officers began confiscating weapons from civilians in preparation for a forced evacuation of the last holdouts..."
It sounds like a headline from "Unintended Consequences". But it's happening now -- today -- in New Orleans. Law enforcement officials are confiscating the legally-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens without due process, without warrants, and without cause, leaving their owners utterly defenseleses and at the mercy of looters and thugs.
According to an article in the New York Times (http://tinyurl.com/9ot44), the police superintendent P. Edwin Compass III decreed that no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry firearms of any kind, even if they possess permits to do so. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
(Well, not quite. The New Orleans police department will not be confiscating the weapons of private security personnel, guaranteeing that only those wealthy enough to afford a private bodyguard can be assured of protection).
Second Amendment advocates have long warned that such confiscations would undoubtedly occur in the event of major catastrophe. That they were right is not a surprise. Sadly, neither is the fact that few gun owners have resisted the confiscations.
Over the years, Americans have become increasingly ignorant about what rights they really have. Inalienable, individual rights have given way to "junk rights" -- privileges to be granted or withheld at the whim of the government. So if the government demands that they give up their guns, it's only natural that they should comply. The police officers and soldiers who are confiscating the firearms are either equally ignorant about citizens' rights ... or simply don't care about following unConstitutional orders.
We've stated repeatedly that we must restore a Bill of Rights culture in this country. Until the populace knows all of its rights and insist those rights be respected , the "brown-shirting" now in New Orleans will only get worse.
We MUST educate our fellow citizens about the Bill of Rights, or what's happening in New Orleans today probably will happen in your town tomorrow.
Wanna bet the brownshirts aren't lusting to do it?
Jews For the Protection of Firearms Ownership, www.jpfo.org has posted the following alert regarding the police state that has been established in the devastated city of New Orleans.
September 9, 2005
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TRUTH,
DON'T READ THIS ALERT!
"Police Begin Seizing Guns of Civilians - Local police officers began confiscating weapons from civilians in preparation for a forced evacuation of the last holdouts..."
It sounds like a headline from "Unintended Consequences". But it's happening now -- today -- in New Orleans. Law enforcement officials are confiscating the legally-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens without due process, without warrants, and without cause, leaving their owners utterly defenseleses and at the mercy of looters and thugs.
According to an article in the New York Times (http://tinyurl.com/9ot44), the police superintendent P. Edwin Compass III decreed that no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry firearms of any kind, even if they possess permits to do so. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
(Well, not quite. The New Orleans police department will not be confiscating the weapons of private security personnel, guaranteeing that only those wealthy enough to afford a private bodyguard can be assured of protection).
Second Amendment advocates have long warned that such confiscations would undoubtedly occur in the event of major catastrophe. That they were right is not a surprise. Sadly, neither is the fact that few gun owners have resisted the confiscations.
Over the years, Americans have become increasingly ignorant about what rights they really have. Inalienable, individual rights have given way to "junk rights" -- privileges to be granted or withheld at the whim of the government. So if the government demands that they give up their guns, it's only natural that they should comply. The police officers and soldiers who are confiscating the firearms are either equally ignorant about citizens' rights ... or simply don't care about following unConstitutional orders.
We've stated repeatedly that we must restore a Bill of Rights culture in this country. Until the populace knows all of its rights and insist those rights be respected , the "brown-shirting" now in New Orleans will only get worse.
We MUST educate our fellow citizens about the Bill of Rights, or what's happening in New Orleans today probably will happen in your town tomorrow.
Wanna bet the brownshirts aren't lusting to do it?
progunner1957
Moderator
The mask comes off...
Welcome to the real America - when the SHTF, the mask comes off - revealing the storm trooper inside. The gun confiscation and police state tactics that are going on are being watched very closely by "The Government."
If people submit to it and accept it, it will happen again and again - and the future incidents will be more blatant and violent with scores of deaths of We The Pepole at the hands of "The Government's" Storm Troopers.
And we all thought the Waffen-SS went down the tubes with the Third Reich...
The area of devastation resulting from Katrina has been described as being equal in size to Britan. If "The Government" can today establish a police state the size of Britan within the borders of the U.S. and get away with it, think what "The Government" will do five or ten years down the road...
Who do we get to hold "The Government" responsible for the abuses it is perpetuating in New Orleans? Who is going to protect the citizens from "The Government??"
It's starting to sound like we are screwed seven ways from Sunday, folks...
What can we do to fight these abuses? I doubt that going to the courts or the Department of Justice - both a part of "The Government" - will do any good. Where do we turn to??
Welcome to the real America - when the SHTF, the mask comes off - revealing the storm trooper inside. The gun confiscation and police state tactics that are going on are being watched very closely by "The Government."
If people submit to it and accept it, it will happen again and again - and the future incidents will be more blatant and violent with scores of deaths of We The Pepole at the hands of "The Government's" Storm Troopers.
And we all thought the Waffen-SS went down the tubes with the Third Reich...
The area of devastation resulting from Katrina has been described as being equal in size to Britan. If "The Government" can today establish a police state the size of Britan within the borders of the U.S. and get away with it, think what "The Government" will do five or ten years down the road...
Who do we get to hold "The Government" responsible for the abuses it is perpetuating in New Orleans? Who is going to protect the citizens from "The Government??"
It's starting to sound like we are screwed seven ways from Sunday, folks...
What can we do to fight these abuses? I doubt that going to the courts or the Department of Justice - both a part of "The Government" - will do any good. Where do we turn to??
Last edited:
XavierBreath
New member
I agree.
What is it going to take to wake up the NRA and GOA?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Unbelievable cop-out on the part of the NRA. The entire Press Release is. Nothing I've read gives LA authorities latitude to disarm any law abiding citizen during a crisis or any other time. Even Judge Andrew Napolitano took this position on FOX today.NRA Press release said:
There are two operative questions here:
1) Can anyone nail down the Emergency Powers statute?
2) Can anyone verify that this practice is widespread? I read the Police Chief's statements and saw the woman being taken down last night (can't view the videos here). But it's REAL important that our community have our facts well laid out before we attack this thing.
Alpineman-
In order to file a Court challenge the "aggrieved" party must have "standing":
eg: I have no standing to sue your local PD because I believe your traffic stop was illegal.
Where's Antipitas when we need him?
Rich
Marko Kloos
Inactive
Call our troops home from Iraq...there's freedom that needs defending on our own soil.
XavierBreath
New member
Executive Order KBB 2005-27 EMERGENCY PROCEDURES FOR CONDUCTING STATE BUSINESS September 3,2005
I cannot find the exact statute, perhaps the EO above will help.
Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, Executive Orders For 2005
edited to add:
RS 29:721 CHAPTER 6. THE LOUISIANA HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE AND DISASTER ACT
F. In addition to any other powers conferred upon the parish president by the constitution, laws, or by a home rule charter or plan of government, such authority may do any or all of the following:
(1) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory ordinance prescribing the procedures for conduct of local business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any local agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any ordinance, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.
(2) Utilize all available resources of the local government as reasonably necessary to cope with the local disaster or emergency.
(3) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of local departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.
(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the local disaster.
(5) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the boundaries of the parish if he deems this action necessary for mitigation, response, or recovery measures.
(6) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destinations in connection with evacuation within the local government's jurisdiction.
(7) Control ingress and egress to and from the affected area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.
(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.
G. In the event of an emergency declared by the parish president pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both.
H. No organization for homeland security and emergency preparedness established under this Chapter shall be employed directly or indirectly for political purposes.
I cannot find the exact statute, perhaps the EO above will help.
Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, Executive Orders For 2005
edited to add:
RS 29:721 CHAPTER 6. THE LOUISIANA HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE AND DISASTER ACT
F. In addition to any other powers conferred upon the parish president by the constitution, laws, or by a home rule charter or plan of government, such authority may do any or all of the following:
(1) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory ordinance prescribing the procedures for conduct of local business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any local agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any ordinance, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.
(2) Utilize all available resources of the local government as reasonably necessary to cope with the local disaster or emergency.
(3) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of local departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.
(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the local disaster.
(5) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the boundaries of the parish if he deems this action necessary for mitigation, response, or recovery measures.
(6) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destinations in connection with evacuation within the local government's jurisdiction.
(7) Control ingress and egress to and from the affected area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.
(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.
G. In the event of an emergency declared by the parish president pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both.
H. No organization for homeland security and emergency preparedness established under this Chapter shall be employed directly or indirectly for political purposes.
I'm here, Rich. The relevent statute reads:
§724(d)(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.
It does not however say, confiscate. Here is a link that gives the powers of the Louisiana Government in a declared State of Emergency.
There can be no Martial Law in this state, unless in time of invasion or insurrection, the Federal Congress declares such. Even then, Martial Law is limited to the concepts embodied within ex parte Milligan. That is, unless the Courts are affected in such a manner that they cannot operate, then Military Courts prevail. During Martial Law, the Military can act as the Police Force, but only if the Police are inoperational.
Even the right of Habeas Corpus (show/produce the body) cannot be done away with without a separate congressional declaration, again solely due to invasion or insurrection.
There is no provision in the Constitution for the for the suspension of the Constitution. Rights cannot be revoked.
Generally, states of emergency can give somewhat broader powers to the State Government, such as confiscation of private property for use of and by the authorities, but only as long as the emergency lasts. All use must be recorded so that the property may be returned or replaced to its lawful owner.
Martial law under the US Constitution and State Constitutions do not mean the imposition of a Police State. Despite what Lincoln did, which was totally unlawful, in modern America, this should not happen.
So what's the deal with NOLA? Mayor Nagin is the sole responsibility for issuing orders to confiscate weapons Orders were issued by Nagin to the Police Super.). He has no legal authority to do so. That it is being carried out, should tell us a lot about the mentality of both the NG and the Police. They will do whatever is ordered, never giving any thought as to the legality of the order.
Can't Happen In America? We are witnessing that it can.
Cameramen are not being permitted inside NOLA as of noon their time. The newsies are leaving, under force of arms.
Not only does the US Constitution bar this, but so does the LA Constitution. Yet it's being done. This is probably the seminal situation where one needs various tools of self defense and it's being denied its citizens.
You are aware that even the 3rd amendment has been violated? Yes, a squad or platoon (not clear which) had commandeered a church as its sleeping quarters? They left a note "apologizing" to the pastor for using the church.
All in all, the first 5 amendmends have been violated. I submit that you cannot trash the Constitution and remain a free society. (rephrased from ex parte Milligan)
Any American who is not outraged by this action, is woefully ignorant of the Rule of Law. At the very least, you need to send letters of such outrage to all your federal and state representatives. I would even flood the SCOTUS with email and snail mail.
I won't presume to say what you should be doing... Only I would ask, "what was that line that couldn't be crossed?"
§724(d)(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.
It does not however say, confiscate. Here is a link that gives the powers of the Louisiana Government in a declared State of Emergency.
There can be no Martial Law in this state, unless in time of invasion or insurrection, the Federal Congress declares such. Even then, Martial Law is limited to the concepts embodied within ex parte Milligan. That is, unless the Courts are affected in such a manner that they cannot operate, then Military Courts prevail. During Martial Law, the Military can act as the Police Force, but only if the Police are inoperational.
Even the right of Habeas Corpus (show/produce the body) cannot be done away with without a separate congressional declaration, again solely due to invasion or insurrection.
There is no provision in the Constitution for the for the suspension of the Constitution. Rights cannot be revoked.
Generally, states of emergency can give somewhat broader powers to the State Government, such as confiscation of private property for use of and by the authorities, but only as long as the emergency lasts. All use must be recorded so that the property may be returned or replaced to its lawful owner.
Martial law under the US Constitution and State Constitutions do not mean the imposition of a Police State. Despite what Lincoln did, which was totally unlawful, in modern America, this should not happen.
So what's the deal with NOLA? Mayor Nagin is the sole responsibility for issuing orders to confiscate weapons Orders were issued by Nagin to the Police Super.). He has no legal authority to do so. That it is being carried out, should tell us a lot about the mentality of both the NG and the Police. They will do whatever is ordered, never giving any thought as to the legality of the order.
Can't Happen In America? We are witnessing that it can.
Cameramen are not being permitted inside NOLA as of noon their time. The newsies are leaving, under force of arms.
Not only does the US Constitution bar this, but so does the LA Constitution. Yet it's being done. This is probably the seminal situation where one needs various tools of self defense and it's being denied its citizens.
You are aware that even the 3rd amendment has been violated? Yes, a squad or platoon (not clear which) had commandeered a church as its sleeping quarters? They left a note "apologizing" to the pastor for using the church.
All in all, the first 5 amendmends have been violated. I submit that you cannot trash the Constitution and remain a free society. (rephrased from ex parte Milligan)
Any American who is not outraged by this action, is woefully ignorant of the Rule of Law. At the very least, you need to send letters of such outrage to all your federal and state representatives. I would even flood the SCOTUS with email and snail mail.
I won't presume to say what you should be doing... Only I would ask, "what was that line that couldn't be crossed?"
I assume the NRA does not want to blunder into this and is diligently checking facts and laws as we write here. I hope they are. It might be they have broad powers to confiscate weapons. I doubt it, since the LA Constitution expressly grants such rights to its citizens, but I would want to be 100% sure before entering the debate. Going off at the mouth is not what responsible organizations do if they want to be taken seriously.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I've seen enough from Anti, Napolitano and other sources I trust to be convinced that .gov powers down there extend only to SALE of firearms, not confiscation.
The next part is to get real info that this is happening in any organized manner. One elderly lady who shows the cops her gun is easily sound-byted away by the other side. Someone walking down the street, or working in their yard, with an exposed weapon, is certainly subject to confiscation, EO or not.
What we need to be careful of is that we don't fight a battle that doesn't exist. If this is not happening as a matter of course, then it's a case of a few possible infringements, without any real traction.
However, I don't pay the NRA to hold to this standard. If they have even one instance, and they do in the NOPD quote, they need to be at the tip of the spear....and they DON'T need to be putting out this, "Well, it looks OK to us; after all, there's an Emergency down there" trash.
Rich
The next part is to get real info that this is happening in any organized manner. One elderly lady who shows the cops her gun is easily sound-byted away by the other side. Someone walking down the street, or working in their yard, with an exposed weapon, is certainly subject to confiscation, EO or not.
What we need to be careful of is that we don't fight a battle that doesn't exist. If this is not happening as a matter of course, then it's a case of a few possible infringements, without any real traction.
However, I don't pay the NRA to hold to this standard. If they have even one instance, and they do in the NOPD quote, they need to be at the tip of the spear....and they DON'T need to be putting out this, "Well, it looks OK to us; after all, there's an Emergency down there" trash.
Rich
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