new mililitary sidearm...

I see no vulgarity in helping to develop superior firearms designs AND designers in the US and not being dependent on foreign companies for our basic firearm technology. Maybe we should strive to develop the 'next' 1911, another classic. No one's suggesting we compromise on the performance and/or quality of the firearm. Just that if we're going to spend the US taxpayer's money and if we can help US industry at the same time too, we should do it. The US firearms industry has been hit hard by all the anti-gun BS over these last 8yrs, maybe we can do something to give it a boost. We're all on the same team.
IMHO, of course. :D
 
I don't want to get too off topic so I'll make this quick and hopefully painless.

Jesus said "you cannot serve two masters" or something to that effect, and he was correct. Either we are going to get the best performing pistol or we are not going to get the best performing pistol. If the company that manufacturers that pistol is based in the USA, so be it, but it is a crime to pick an inferior pistol because it's parent company is American owned. I think that Glocks are some of the best pistols in existence but they are Austrian, I don't think that should keep them from being considered as the US issue sidearm so long as it is stipulated that a factory on the American mainland produce them. I think this is necessary because if we find ourselves in a nasty situation and need a bunch of guns NOW, you don't want to worry about getting them from overseas. Suppose the country they are produced in gets invaded or the govt is overthrown, how do you get your guns then?

That is why I would require that, it has absolutely nothing to do with "Buy American!" or anything like that, as "buy American" is an unAmerican notion in my opinion (Forgive me Marko).

As for helping our firearms industry after the Clinton onslaught, why don't we have the government stop doing everything in it's power to annihilate the industry and I think it'll do just fine. The HUD lawsuits and stupid regulations that artificially increase the price of guns are the problem, not the lack of forced military contracts. Once the Supreme court recognizes the right to bear arms, thus making all gun control unconstitutional, and a high court decision saying that a firearms manufacturer cannot be held liable for violence anymore than McDonalds can be held liable for heart attacks, the industry will flourish once again. All we need is for the handcuffs to be taken off
 
There was a time when the military knew exactly what it wanted, and it would go to the current gun designers and have them build protypes for their consideration. That's how we came upon such greats as the 1911 and the M1 Garand. Nowadays, they just simply pick from what's commercially available and try to make it work for their needs.

No wonder nobody's ever happy! :rolleyes:
 
We designed and produced our own military small arms for awhile and we ended up with:

M14- a select fire rifle that's uncontrollable in full auto.
M16- the world's filthiest assualt rifle
M60- a combination of features of a variety from successful machine guns, but none of the good features, like changeable barrels.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the Belgian M249 SAW and M240G or the German MP-5. Our modern weapon design is so poor that German and British WWII machine gun designs are still front line issue in many modern armies while some of our late '50's designs have been discarded.

The only likely US winner of the pistol trials was Ruger, and that gun wasn't fit for duty until the early '90's (P89).

The US has not "led the way" in small arms design since Garand and Williams.
 
DSK-
We still ask for prototypes. The SOCOM trials fetched a hugely beefed up USP derivative from Germany. The US offering was a varient of the Colt 2000.

Would you carry a Colt 2000? Well, neither would SOCOM.
 
I don't hear anyone complaining about the Belgian M249 SAW
Click to expand...

Then I don't think you know anyone that uses one. All I have heard then called is "jammomatic".

I think Seals also have Tacticals, because the MK23 is so freaking huge.
 
249 SAW

The Marines I've talked to only aluded to problems when using M16 mags, since the cyclic rate increases. But I will ask around some more.
 
What a hornets nest!..
I own, and carry, a Beretta 96 Brigadier. Guess what is has stamped in the slide, "MADE IN USA". I can see the flaws in this weapon, but they are few, so far....The gun is simple, dependable, fairly accurate(could be better..) and made in the USA. Bottom line is that it works, and works good. Is that not the main point?
The guns are made in a US factory, by Americans. So the only thing that goes over seas is the profit, which the workers would not see anyway, and would just sit in some politicians pocket anyway....

I think we should hold trials every few years, and make all the companies compete. That would get the US owned companies off their butts and working, and expanding their companies. That would mean more jobs......

I also agree that the right to keep and bear arms is being taken away from the public very slowly, but surely. We have soom laws to protect our citizens, but disarming them is not protecting them! If I was a criminal, and wanted to rob a bank or something, I would not give a rats a$$ if I was breaking a gun law in the process! Take all restriction off the publics right to keep and bear arms and you will see crime drop! Society is safer when the criminals do not know who is armed! Maybe you would have more shotouts, but hey, thats just two more stupid people out of the gene pool. On the down side, you would have people dieing in crossfire....

We have too many laws hindering our ability to protect ourselves! And half of them don't make any sense other than some politician getting a kickback! Example: A swithblade knife is illegal to carry/own (whatever), but I can walk down the street with a 36 inch sword! What the hell is going on here! Oh yea, politics as usual :rolleyes: ....

Peace everyone, hope I did not offend anyone, that was not my intent, thanks for reading, rant off. :cool:
 
corsair,

The M9, 1911, and H&K P9 are no longer in the inventory.

The M9 hasn't been used since 1989. The 1911 and the P9 were getting old and had seen better days.

All S&W 66's were replaced by 686's.
 
Silent-1, I support your points and they're well taken. Although the above weapons have not been used on a regular basis, they are available along with a wide range of other exotics.

Of course some of them are not used with any frequency let alone see the light of day. A lot of what I had listed although not being used currently, has been in the past. The beauty of NSW and other SpecOp units is the loosening of restrictions for weapons and equipment procurement, outside of the general DoD norm. But, like any other military units, worn parts and the aquisition of replacements narrows the field to which large numbers can be fielded. Hence, the 226 as the standard, and the others on a as needed basis.
 
I was only an Air Farce Master Sergeant, not a real killer, so take that into consideration. ;)

Was issued/carried the M9 from 87 until 98. Never saw/had any problems. Have owned several 92/96s, never had any problems. Fired 1500 rounds of Israeli brown tipped 9mm ammo through my M9 one day no problem. Already had several thousand rounds through it, had several thousand more through it before I was transfered (some USAF people get interesting special duty assignments in fun places).

Talked to the range officers at the local USAF base. They have over 30,000 rounds through most of their training pistols and have had no problems. They have never broken a slide, rarely break a block, never under 15,000 rounds.

Have heard of much worse performance from others in the Army/Navy though. What can I tell ya? Some people take better care of their stuff than others? Get better stuff?

Ya know, some USN SEALS (Seal Team Two IIRC?) were "visiting" Vandenberg AFB years ago and had an AD/ND with a grenade launcher in our squadron parking lot; shot a round through the roof of the truck he was in. It landed on top of our armory and our EOD people had to go play with it. Borrowed some of our rifles, and when they tirned them in the bbls were bent. Asked em howit happened and they just shrugged and smiled...

To be fair, I have seen USAF troops fire rounds into the aircraft they were guarding too.

I had a point, but I lost it somewhere... ;)
 
Silent-1

I beg to dif on your perspective. Sure the Seals are issued a weapon, just like the old gunnys were issued the new plastic stocked goodies in 'Nam. Somehow they managed to hang onto the lumber covered service rifles that they had been using for years.

Official policy is that the Seals are issued weapons. Unofficially, they pretty much carry what they please. The majority may indeed carry the GI issue piece, a few still carry 1911A1s (accurized), HK MK23 SOCOM versions, HK Tacticals (scaled down version of the SOCOM), and yes even one who carries a smith .357 wheelgun. Oh they still have their Sigs, nicely clean and tucked away in their packs somewhere safe. These are not typical GI issue, and some are their own personal weapons.
 
KMKeller,

Yes, SEALs ARE ISSUED Sig P226's, HK MK23's and the S&W 686 .
The Teams haven't used the "standard" GI pistol(M9) since 1989.

The P226's are not "tucked away in their packs". The Sigs are actually "tucked away" on their thigh's in Safariland 6004's.

The Sig is BY FAR the most common sidearm in the Teams. It is ISSUED to every SEAL. The MK23 and 686 are mainly used on long dive ops.

Personal weapons ARE NOT ALLOWED.

Obviously your " IN The Know".
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the contract stipulates that they have to be built in the USA. I see far more US made Berettas than Italian ones. Isn't that how Taurus came about, after the Brazilian contract ran out the machinery was sold to Taurus from what I have heard.
 
Yep. How we get Beretta clones from Brazil, Egypt, and Greece. HK clones form Greece, Portugal, and Spain. FN made M16A2 rifles for the US military under license in a plant in SC (I was issued one from 94-98). Beretta has not sold the plant in Maryland though; it produces the commercial and military pistols. Been there since before the M9 contract actually.

IIRC, in the original M9 5 yr contract the guns were made and assembled in Italy the first year, made there and assembled here second year, made and assembled here third through fifth years (and since). Original contract was for about 350,000 pistols. Bought about 100,000 more M9s (over 450,000 total), even after you-know-what happened. AFAIK, all the slides that broke (until about 96 when I stopped watching as closely) were made in Italy BTW.

Used to be ya could tell a USA made model Beretta by the BER prefix in the serial # (for commercial models anyway) and the blue boxes. Italian made guns had a single letter prefix and silver boxes. May have changed.

Not sure if the same was done for the M11/SIG228 and Mk23/HK pistols.
 
The Beretta was and still is a functional weapon that serves its purpose. The only way I can see the Corps changing any weapon out with something bigger or newer, is if the Army has used it first, and it must be of great benefit to a grunt unit/MEU/line company. Since our primary weapon is the rifle, the sense of urgency to spend that type of money to outfit an entire Armed Force just doesn't exist, especially when it doesn't need to be replaced. In my eyes, the beretta's main function in the Corps is to arm MP/CID and officers. Keep it as far as I am concerned. Spend the money on bigger and better rifles and crew served weapons! Just my opinion.

Semper Fi-
JJC
 
The Beretta was and still is a functional weapon that serves its purpose. The only way I can see the Corps changing any weapon out with something bigger or newer, is if the Army has used it first, and it must be of great benefit to a grunt unit/MEU/line company. Since our primary weapon is the rifle, the sense of urgency to spend that type of money to outfit an entire Armed Force just doesn't exist, especially when it doesn't need to be replaced. In my eyes, the beretta's main function in the Corps is to arm MP/CID and officers. Keep it as far as I am concerned. Spend the money on bigger and better rifles and crew served weapons! Just my opinion.

Semper Fi-
JJC
 
Listen up! This retired Master Sergeant can tell ya just cuzz sumthin' "isn't allowed" doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And the rules aren't the same for everybody everywhere all the time either. I was in the Air Force and I carried a M1911A1, M1935 (BHP), P7 (HK PSP) and CZ75 at times. ;)

There are several SEAL teams after all; I doubt they have all been run the same way all the time everywhere either, regardless what the regs say/allow. I have seen SEALs w USPs (not the Mk23 45) for example.

All the money they have spent on all the M9/M11/Mk23s is _less_ than the cost of one fighter aircraft BTW. ;)

FYI:

From Dean Speir at the GunZone:

<The Marine Corps Systems Command proposes to procure precision weapons components and accessories from the vendors listed below for a 789 each production quantity of Marine Corps MEU(SOC) .45 Close Quarters Battle Pistols to be manufactured in-house by the Marine Master Gunsmiths of the Precision Weapons Section, MCBQ.
The Marine Corps will place contracts/purchase orders for the following commercial off-the-shelf components which were found to be best suited for this application after extensive market research and field testing. From:

Nowlin Custom Mfg, Claremore, OK, 789 barrel kits (barrel, bushing, barrel link, link pin), 789 ejectors, 789 mainspring housings, 789 mainsprings, 789 recoil springs, 789 sear springs, and 789 firing pin stops;

Springfield Armory, Geneseo, IL, 789 slides with front sights and pins;

Cylinder & Slide, Inc., Fremont, NE, 789 hammer/ sear/ disconnector kits;

Ed Brown Products, Inc., Perry, MO, 789 grip safeties and recoil spring guides;

Novak's Inc., Parkersburg, WV, 789 rear sights and rear sight set screws;

Wilson's Gun Shop, Inc., Berryville, AR, 789 extractors and magazine catches;

Kings Gun Works Inc., Glendale, CA, 789 ambidextrous thumb safeties.

There are no formal solicitations and quotes will be solicited orally.>

So which parts are missing?
:D
 
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