New Handgun Cartridge Development

Thomas, just get a .41 magnum and be happy. Your Redhawk is waiting for you. Because if you’re going to load it up, at least really load it up!

You’re trying to invent the .41 Special.
 
44 AMP,

I’m surprised that you don’t think the magnums were developed for self defense. 357, 44 mag, etc. If not, then what were they created for? Genuinely curious.

I'm surprised that you are surprised. :rolleyes:

None of the magnums, including the.357 was intended as a personal defense arm. In fact, early S&W ads said the .357 was intended for outdoorsmen and law enforcement. it wasn't thought of as an everyone gun for self defense. And in 1935 law enforcement needs were different than "ordinary" self defense needs.

It has since been very successfully adapted for that, but self defense wasn't what they had in mind when they created it.

Elmer Keith who developed the .44 Magnum wasn't looking for a self defense round either. The point was to develop the most powerful pistol round practical, for hunting. There is simply too much recoil for cops (or anyone else, generally) to be able to shoot it well enough, FAST enough for it to be a satisfactory defense round. Power is not the issue, controllability, is.

Dirty Harry is FICTION. And even he admitted in one scene that he used .44 Specials, not magnums. :D

There have been other rounds that really only made "niche" status, and never caught on with the general public. .451 Detonics, .460 Rowland, .440 CorBon, intended to go in 1911a1 type guns. THose were all seeking to increase the power of the .45ACP, and those I would consider designed with defense use in mind.

There are more, "ultra mag" or "Maximum" revolver rounds, intended for max power for hunting and long range shooting. There have been a few "stretched" 9mm caliber rounds, 9x23, 9x25, intended for race gun speed shooting matches.

And none of the really big ones, .475, .480 and the .50s were ever thought of as self defense rounds.

I really don't see how you could have thought otherwise.
 
My only wish is for someone to put a revolver rim on a 10mm and 40S&W case and chamber it in a 6 shot GP-100 or L-Frame S&W. No need for the goofy moon clips that I do not like. Just a real revolver round in a not so huge gun.

Make the internal case dimensions the same so you can use the already existing load data. I would like that better than the 5 shot 44 special Ruger makes. If they still make it.

Other than that I can't see another handgun round needed. And this isn't needed. I just want it. I thought the 40S&W was the best round ever given to LE. More capacity than a 45 and similar energy. I reload and like a gun that doesn't throw my brass all over the place.

Or just put a rim on a 10mm case. Then you can load to any power level you want.
You’re talking about a .41 special, brass is available from Starline. I too would like a GP100 chambered thus, although not quite sure you could fit six in this size cylinder.
 
Thomas, just get a .41 magnum and be happy. Your Redhawk is waiting for you. Because if you’re going to load it up, at least really load it up!

You’re trying to invent the .41 Special.

No thanks. I have owned three 41 mags and it was OK but I just went on to the 44 mag. And i'm not looking for a magnum power gun.

You’re talking about a .41 special, brass is available from Starline. I too would like a GP100 chambered thus, although not quite sure you could fit six in this size cylinder.

There ya go. Somebody who gets it. I want a mid size gun with 6 shots, not a Redhawk sized gun. If I were going to be limited to 5 shots in a GP-100 sized gun I would just get the GP in 44 Special and be done with it.
 
You must really dislike moon clips. Your ideal gun is available from Ruger and S&W--you just have to either use moon clips or be willing to poke the empy cases out of the cylinder one at a time.
 
I wonder if Starline could be persuaded to make me 500 10mm Auto Rim cases. I bet not.

only 500? No, I don't think they will. Order 10,000 and pay cash up front and it could be a different matter.

No idea what their minimum order would need to be for something they do not already produce. Might need to be much larger, bet if you called them, they'd tell you.
 
Take a .30-30 case, shorten to 10mm length, ream for 10mm bullet.
Peen the rim to increase its thickness and reduce its diameter.
Voi la! A 10mm Auto Rim.
 
Take a .30-30 case, shorten to 10mm length, ream for 10mm bullet.
Peen the rim to increase its thickness and reduce its diameter.

Why would you need to increase rim thickness??? Turning down the rim to reduce diameter, I can see where that might be needed to fit 6 in a small (med size) cylinder. We're talking about a gun made for the ".40 Special", right? Not a converted 10mm. so there wouldn't have to be a space for moon clips that needed filling.

Also, not sure the ,30-30 is a good choice, to shorten and ream to .40cal.

Going by the drawings in my Hornady book, (and assuming I'm reading things right -do check for yourself), the .30-30 is a couple thousandths smaller at the case head than the 10mm is at the case mouth. And the case body tapers so its even smaller by the time you get from the head out to the point where you're going to make the new pistol case mouth.

SO, it seems to me that would require a multi step process to "blow the case body out straight" , and THEN ream the thick body brass down enough to take a 10mm bullet. And that's IF with the taper removed there is enough room to work with, because even straight the case would be about .002" too small in diameter to match book specs. AND add in the factor that the book specs are maximums and virtually all brass is slightly LESS than that, so its not impossible that the .30-30 case might actually be just a tiny bit too small in diameter to use in the ".40 Special" project.

A better starting point might be the .30-40 Krag case, its larger at the head than the .30-30 and still smaller in diameter there than the .30-06 family of cases. However, using the Krag case brings it own set of complications.

First , shortened to .998" (10mm case length) it would be a tapered round, not a straight body one. Not insurmountable, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.

Second, the large Krag rim would probably need to be turned down to reduce the diameter in order to get 6 (or even 5?) to fit in the cylinder.

And third, Krag brass isn't easy to find these days, and if Krag shooters find you cutting up their scarce (and expensive) rare cases, they would be very tempted to shoot you! :eek::rolleyes: (someplace non lethal, like your butt, hopefully...)

It might be cheaper, and I think easier work, to get some like minded investors and put up the cash to order 100,000 (or whatever they require) from Starline to get them to make the case you want, new.

And then, of course, the cash to get the gun you want, made in that cartridge. Spendy start up costs no matter how you go about it, from what I can see. Upside, if you have the money to do it, you're in a position to name it, and get in the gun history books, and sell it to other interested folks.

I do not think there is a rimmed "parent" case that is ideal for what you want, but if you've got the $$$ you could have them made. If you've got enough $$$ you can get anything made. :D
 
I was thinking of a true 10mm Auto Rim with thick (thickened) rim for use in existing 10mm Norma clip guns from Ruger and Smith. .30-30 is within a thousandth of 10mm head diameter, correcting the rim and straightening the sidewalls is left as an exercise for the student.

If you want a real .40 revolver, Herter's did it.

These internet thought experiments, I always assume the OP has either equipment and skills or money and contacts to get the work done. Saying "they" ought to turn out a new product for his convenience does not count.

There was an old article about using .303 Savage cases to make .41 Magnum, including cylinder length shot shells. Talk about hurting somebody's feelings sawing off scarce brass.
 
Good thoughts on the case forming job to make a 40 caliber case to fit a 10mm gun. But I'll never do it. And I looked at the shop Ruger to see about extra clips. Then I found you need the special moon clip loading tool plus a special tool to remove the fired cases. And yo have to buy a mandrel that fits the case mouth for the clip loading tool.

The total for three extra moon clips and the assorted tools was $103 plus shipping and what ever taxes you have to pay now. So no thanks, it ain't gonna happen.

I guess if I wanted a mid size big bore gun I would just try to find one of the 44 Specials Ruger made on the GP-100 frame. In the end it was just an idea.

My 4 and 6 inch 357s look better all the time. Matter of fact I think they are about perfect. :)
 
How about a Glock 20 that can shoot a 9mm bullet at over 2400 fps and almost 900 ft lbs of energy?:D 9x 25 Dillon has been around a long time.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • IMG_5910.jpg
    IMG_5910.jpg
    147.7 KB · Views: 199
What 9mm bullet and barrel length is giving 2,400fps?

The info I found on the 9x25 is with a 6" barrel and says the 90gr hits 2,100fps and the 115gr 1800fps. So where's 2,400 coming from? 8"? 10??

If you're for the most speed from a .35 cal repeating handgun, I suggest you check the ballistics on a round that could be called the "9x33", but isn't.:rolleyes:
 
The info I found on the 9x25 is with a 6" barrel and says the 90gr hits 2,100fps and the 115gr 1800fps. So where's 2,400 coming from? 8"? 10??
15.6 grs AA7 behind 65 gr inceptor out of my glock's 8" (actually slightly under since it was trimmed and crowned) 9 x 25 dillon barrel made for me by Lone Wolf.
 
The total for three extra moon clips and the assorted tools was $103 plus shipping and what ever taxes you have to pay now. So no thanks, it ain't gonna happen.
Just like buying magazines for semi-auto pistols. Except that once you have the loading/unloading tools, getting more moonclips is way cheaper than buying magazines.

And, of course, since you have moonclips, you save money by not having to buy speedloaders.
 
Back
Top