New Guy Question on Plated (Berrys)

[Nick_C_S]

Load workups are a process. How you get there isn't nearly as important as doing it safely.

Shoot the 5.6's. Shoot the 6.0's. Have fun doing it; then, decide from there your next step.

A chronograph isn't imperative. At least, not in this case. Move up your charge weight until you get a recipe you like. Look for pressure signs along the way. Eventually, you'll find a charge weight that you'll consider one of your mainstay ("pet") loads.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Nick Wrote: Shoot the 5.6's. Shoot the 6.0's. Have fun doing it; then, decide from there your next step.

Nick: Just got the Lee Taper Die, calibrated, and cranked out 30 @ 6.2gr.

I noticed that occasionally the taper die shaves a very tiny amount of brass, at first I thought it was plating shave from the bullet seat die, but on close inspection it happens during the crimp and is made of brass. I'm talking just a tiny tiny bit, I flick it away and move on; there is no indication of a malformed bullet, or case. Am I taper crimping too tight?

Take a look at the photos.... Sorry for the Poor Quality, need a Macro lens on the Iphone

In the photos the Roll Crimp is on the right, or on the bottom; Taper crimp on of course on the left, or top...

At first I couldn't tell the difference, but after pressing a few dozen its much easier to notice.

 

[kmw1954]

Hello Ben,
Coming in a little late but with a few thoughts.

While not your revolver cartridge I to have just recently started Handloading again after a long absence and have been working with Berry's plated bullets in the 9mm. In my previous reloading practice I was loading 357 with Speer 158gr. LSWC using Bullseye powder and was very happy with it. At that time I was using Speer Number 10 manual which takes me back to about 1980 and way before the internet. I still have that book.

It lists the 158gr LSWC using Bullseye at 4.3 to 4.8 or Unique at 5.5 to 6.0gr.. It then lists Speer's 158gr JHP which has a cannelure showing Bullseye at 6.6 to 7.1 or Unique at 7.7 to 8.2gr..

So there is a comparison between a lead bullet and a jacketed bullet of the same weight using the same powders from the same manual.

When I started loading the plated Berry's I was finding it hard to find published data that I though reliable because it was all over the board for the 124gr. bullet.

I am using Hodgdon HP-38 powder so I went to Hodgdon's website and found a listing for the Berry's 124gr Hollow Base Round Nose there. Only I was using a flat base RN. So I asked around and no one could give me an answer as to the difference between the 2 bullets. So I proceeded to start at the suggested starting load which was 3.9gr of this powder. Loaded 15 at that charge and then also loaded 15ea in .1gr increments up to 4.2gr..

When I got to testing them I shot in 3 round groups to test for function and accuracy. I found the starting load was mild an accurate but was not enough to lock the slide back with the last round in the auto pistol. The next test of the 4.0gr charge would fully cycle and lock. The next two test also went well.

Later, after loading a couple hundred and firing the worked up loads I found the 4.2gr load to be the most accurate and pleasant to shoot. Max for this was 4.4gr which I didn't load to.

Then I found more info. I was on the Western/Accurate Powders website looking for data on Accurate #5 I found they had data on both the Berry's 124gr Hollow Base and the 124gr flat base. Surprisingly they showed a difference of .5gr in the starting load for these 2 bullets and a difference of .6gr in the Max load using the same powder.

So I can understand how one gets confused and frustrated trying to find data on bullets that do not have published data.

I do not have a chronograph to shoot thru and the 2 ranges I shoot at are not set up to allow them so I start my loads low and work up until I find the most accurate while still being pleasant to shoot all day. For me anyways accuracy outweighs FPS. Also not a fan of coming home with a sore wrist from pounding heavy recoil all day.

Don't know if this helps you at all but it is what I've found and have dealt with as far as load data using different bullets and powders.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Thanks KMW for your response. We have beat the powder load and crimp process into the ground over the past week.

I have opted to go with a slightly higher load than listed for lead, basically a light-mid jacked load per Nick's recommendation (he has extensive experience with Berry's Plated).

My last post included some photos using a Lee crimp Die vs. Lee FCD. Hoping Nick will take a look to ensure my taper crimp is not overbaked.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Am I taper crimping too tight?

Hard to determine via pic, but it would appear to be too tight. I see a bit much burnishing on the mouth edge; and it also appears there may be some bullet deformation - but then, it could just be photographic distortion.

Do you have a kinetic puller? It'd be good to pull one just to see what the plating looks like post seat/crimp. Either way, go ahead and shoot 'em and see how they perform (i.e., continue with your work up).

Crimping is a feel thing and there is no substitute for experience.

In June '84 I started loading 38/357 & 44M/44S. So I cut my teeth on revolver cartridges. Turned out to be a good thing, which I didn't realize at the time. In Oct that year, I got a 1911 and started loading 45 ACP. I got a little wrapped around the axle crimping the ACP cartridge as it was apples-n-oranges compared to the very "positive feeling" roll crimp. But it didn't take long to not over-think it and go by feel. I was making excellent 45 ACP ammo in short order (one pet recipe I still use to this day).

Some will say to put calipers on the mouth and measure your crimp. Me, I've never done that. I'm not opposed to it; but I personally have never had a need to do so. And I'm skeptical that doing so can get an accurate measurement that would have any real world meaning. But hey, I've never done it; so maybe I'm wrong. I just going off my extensive experience with a number of fine measuring instruments from past careers.

Obviously, your press has a tremendous mechanical advantage. So it doesn't take a lot of "resistance feel" to apply a proper taper crimp. Here's one of my plated 357's that's taper crimped. This is an X-treme 158 SWC. Yes, it has a cannelure, but as mentioned in a previous post "plated trumps cannelure" when choosing crimp type. You'll see a little nickel "chewing" around the case mouth - that's likely do to the fact that this piece of brass has been loaded countless times, and roll crimped - sometimes heavily (big, full-magnum loads with gobbs of W296 , and is not related to its current taper crimp.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Nick Wrote: see a bit much burnishing on the mouth edge; and it also appears there may be some bullet deformation - but then, it could just be photographic distortion.

Nick:

I noticed the weird deformation, as a photographer I have seen that when attempting Macro photography with a non-macro lens. Depth of field at macro closeness will bend perspective on rounded objects, hence the pinch effect on the curvature of the bullet.

I inspected every case/bullet and measured COL, and at the mouth using calipers. There is only a tiny discernible difference between the roll and crimp. The burnishing on the mouth edge is real, but I boosted the "sharpness" to maximum on the photo which may have also exaggerated that aspect. There definitely was a tiny bit of brass that flaked off on SOME, so some burnishing did occur, but went over EACH one with a magnifying glass and cannot detect even the slightest visible damage to the bullet. Cannot determine the plating condition underneath without pulling it of course, but suspect that a crimp tight enough to crack plating would have some visible stress marks extending outside the case mouth. Will back off the taper slightly on the next batch.

So go ahead and fire away then with these? I could go buy a kinetic puller this afternoon, or do you think I might be venturing toward overcautious?

 

[Nick_C_S]

So go ahead and fire away then with these?

Yes, go have fun.

I could go buy a kinetic puller this afternoon

You don't need one right away. But it's a piece of equipment all loaders should eventually have. Get one at your financial convenience.

or do you think I might be venturing toward overcautious?

Yes. But that's okay .

Okay, I'm off to the range to do a "stress test" on coated bullets. Range report likely to follow .

 

[Hammerhead]

Hammer, with all due respect, I have three other sources including from Alliant. They list minimum .357M load for Unique using a Lead 158gr @ 5.3 which delivers 922fps and a Maximum of 6.0 which delivers 1034fps.

Not calling anyone wrong, just reporting the numbers obtained from the sources I am using. Is there a reason for the different numbers? I am loading using 5.6gr of Unique for the Berry's Plated FN

Alliant's data is not necessarily max pressure data, but more likely limiting speeds to about 1000 fps to keep leading to a minimum. (like Speer lead data) There is plenty of data out there for 158 cast lead that goes up to 7.5 grains Unique and more.

I use jacketed data and estimate the speed based on jacketed data. Jacketed data goes up to 8 grains. (I consider 7 grains max with 158 plated)

6.5 grains of Unique in 357 brass with a 158 plated is a soft shooting load with no pressure signs. Hell, 8.4 grains of HS-6 is much stiffer, flattens the primers slightly, but is still safe.

If you want to limit yourself to soft lead data with plated bullets, fine, but they can easily handle mid-range jacketed data.

And I guarantee if you put your 5.3 grain load over a chrono it will be nowhere near 922 fps, plated bullets are slow.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Hammer.... Nick already convinced me to use a low/mid jacketed as reference. I bumped my initial load to 5.6, then 6.0, and finally 6.2

I wasn't saying you were wrong, just pointing out that Reloading Manuals, touted as the reference Gold Standard, are confusing (to the beginner) and provide conflicting info.


<Rant>

Its no wonder there are so many beginners consulting advice from this forum regarding load data. The Publishers of Reloading Manuals need to get their act together and decide on a common set of criteria across the industry, or SAAMI should step up and provide guidance.

While experienced hand loaders can fall back on experience,and are able to read the early signs of danger, beginners must trust reloading tables and hope for the best. Hand loading is one of those potentially dangerous activities that you HAVE to get correct on the FIRST attempt, yet the folks that publish the data does so in such an unregulated haphazard method as if its a Jello recipe.

</Rant>

 

[Hammerhead]

And none of the plated bullet manufacturers seem to have any interest in providing real data. Good luck

 

[kmw1954]

Hammerhead from my searches Accurate seems to have the most load data available for plated which I found very informative. Because of that the next trip out to pick up supplies I will be purchasing some Accurate powder to try.

 

[Hammerhead]

Thanks, yeah, that's a good reason to try Accurate. Apparently they like their fastest powders for plated, I might try #2 for target loads, it's always had a good rep in .45 auto and .38 spl.

Rainier used to have load data available, but they pulled it down for some reason.

From all the chrono results I've seen I estimate my fps for 158 plated by multiplying my charge of Unique in grains times 135 (4" barrel, within a range of 4.5 to 7 grains).