New Guy Question on Plated (Berrys)

[jetinteriorguy]

Using Extreme brand Cu plated bullets with the Lee collet crimp die has never broken the Cu plating for me even with a pretty fair crimp. A good way to test how your doing is to load up a dummy round and then extract it with an inertia type bullet puller, this will tell you wheather or not your crimp is too heavy. The nice thing about the collet crimp is the fact it isn't as dependent on your brass length to be effective. This is just my direct experience, ymmv.

 

[mikld]

Ben Snow, when one asks a question on a forum, 99.9% of the replies are opinions. Many lack actual, tested facts. To eliminate any confusion/frustration, a new reloader should research. With all the information available from manufacturers there is no reason to ask on a forum "how do I crimp plated bullets?". There are tons of texts out there that are backed by facts. Depending on the general "personality" of the forum a question will be answered with every conceivable answer from A to Z. Forums with mostly older/experienced members will lean towards one area of thinking and a forum with predominately newer reloaders will perhaps go 180 degrees from that thinking. Military arms based forums will differ from basically hunting forums and both will differ from forums devoted to bench rest target shooting...

All of us have heard the excuse; "well I read it on the internet...".

 

[Nick_C_S]

I would never load uncannelured plated bullets in my .357 Magnum pistol or rifle.

I do. I load Berry's 158 PFP (which is the one I believe our OP is using) and X-treme's reasonable facsimile (more so than Berry's - but that's off subject). Neither has a cannelure. I do however, taper crimp them. I also load (more of) X-treme's 158 SWC. Now it has a cannelure, but I still taper crimp it. I taper crimp all my plated ammunition. These 357 Mag loads are my mainstay "range shooters" and run well short of a true "magnum performance" round. They're hotter than 38+P, but certainly short of what most consider "magnum."

Berry's are soft, any type crimp is likely to break the thin copper plating and also effect accuracy.

Any type crimp? Even taper? Either way, I've loaded my share of plated ammo where the copper plating was likely broken and my day(s) at the range was unaffected. Yes, ideally, we loaders should avoid breaking the copper plating, but doing so isn't catastrophic. I'm not denying it can cause leading and adversely affect accuracy. I'm just saying that in the real world, it doesn't seem to be much of an atrocity. Perspective.

I too would highly recommend jacketed cannelured bullet for .357

I agree insomuch that the implication is that loaders are substituting plated bullets for jacketed; and one shouldn't. Plated bullets are meant to be a "clean" substitute for lead bullets. Not a cheap substitute for jacketed bullets.

I load a lot of plated bullets; and I like them a lot. But they're not jacketed. With my load style, I'm quick to move to jacketed if my load purpose is a fairly hot round.

 

[disseminator]

I have loaded hundreds of plated 158g bullets for my buddies SW 586 revolver, and thousands of plated bullets for my own 45 Colt. So this is fact based.

First of all, I've yet to see anyone mention trimming so I will. Regardless of crimp type case length will determine whether or not you will get consistent crimping. So ensure that your brass is close in length. It doesn't necessarily have to be MINIMUM trim length mind you, just equal so that when your crimp is applied, it will be consistent for all your rounds.

If your bullets have a cannelure and you are seating to cannelure depth: use a roll crimp. If your bullets have no cannelure, or you are seating to a depth that is not lining up to the cannelure: taper crimp.

Lymans has excellent data for lead bullets which is what I use for plated bullets.

Happy shooting!

 

[Ben_Snow]

mikld wrote; With all the information available from manufacturers there is no reason to ask on a forum "how do I crimp plated bullets

Actually the question I asked referred to advice on using a taper or roll crimp, a fair question to ask on a handloading forum I would think.

Regardless, the entire purpose of this forum is for people to ask "how do I", following your logic there would not be any questions asked, and therefore no forum.

For the record I did do my own research outside the forum. I contacted both Lee and Berry's directly and spoke with them. The forum question I posted was to validate the vendors advice and gain some wisdom from those with actual hands-on experience. Many provided information that was extremely helpful, and I am extremely grateful to those people. I have all the information I need so will move on. Have a good day

 

[Nick_C_S]

Regardless of crimp type case length will determine whether or not you will get consistent crimping.

Mmm, yes. But case length is far less critical with a taper crimp than a roll crimp. It's one of the numerous advantages of taper crimping. But yeah, in a perfect world, all brass would be the same length regardless of crimp type. I have trimmed 357 and 44Mag brass to get a consistent crimp - but it was for the sake of a roll crimp. If I was only taper crimping, I probably wouldn't have bothered with trimming (trimmed some 44 Mag brass just last week).

If your bullets have a cannelure and you are seating to cannelure depth: use a roll crimp.

Yes. But IMO the exception is if the bullet is plated. Plated trumps cannelure when it comes to crimp type. I use a taper crimp with X-treme's 158 SWC; and it has a cannelure (and I seat to the cannelure). I also use a taper crimp with my lead 38 target ammo (even though I'm seating to the crimp groove - the lead equivalent of a cannelure). With 148 DEWC's, and 158 & 178 SWC's, there's so much bullet bearing on the case sides, a roll crimp is completely unnecessary (also considering they're over fast, easily ignited propellant). Taper crimping preserves the brass.

If your bullets have no cannelure, or you are seating to a depth that is not lining up to the cannelure: taper crimp.

Agree.

I'm a fan of taper crimping revolver ammo whenever it's appropriate. I only roll crimp my jacketed bullets. And it's not so much because they're jacketed; it's because when I run jacketed, I'm also running slower - more difficult to ignite - propellants. They tend to go together

 

[mikld]

Well, I've been reloading , off and on, for 40 years (Lee Loader for 38 Special in '69) and 99% of the "real" data I get is not from forums. I started reloading "pre-web" and produced thousands of safe, accurate ammo, with most of my info and data coming from published manuals/texts. Helpful "hints" come from forums, yes, but I wouldn't want to depend on anonymous screen names for important, critical data. I think I said that a new reloader is better off researching data from the guys that make the plated bullets than asking a forum. All you gotta do is look at a few forums and sooner than later someone will ask "how do I crimp my plated bullets?" and some will say "roll crimp into the side" or "I don't crimp my ___" and some will say "taper crimp". Forums have become the "go to" place for information and while most are being helpful, there are better sources of technical info., especially for a new reloader. Forums are fun, like a bunch of guys hanging out at the gun store, swapping stories and an occasional technical help/hint.

I tried plated bullets several years ago, and I did not ask this question on a forum because my experience has always been to use this rule of thumb; bullets with crimp groove or cannalure get a roll crimp and those without a cannalure or crimp groove get a taper crimp (of course there are exceptions). When I wanted load data for plated bullets (Berry's) I went to the manufacturer. (I think I would validate a information I found on a forum with the manufactures, not visa-versa).

Personally I'm not impressed with plated bullets and do not use them anymore (my cast bullets don't lead my guns and I clean my guns every range session and if I need higher velocity for hunting or SD, I'll go with jacketed). But I'm not anti-plated bullets either...

My opinion only...

 

[Unclenick]

This has me looking closely at the Lee Collet-style Crimp Die for 38 and 357. For a revolver using an un-cannelured bullet, the abstract idea makes sense. Cracking of the copper? Well, if the indentation is less than the depth of a rifling groove, it shouldn't do any more or any less damage to the copper than the rifling does, so that would be my depth objective with it. Will it distort the bullet a little? Yes, but having fired a lot of military .30-06 ball ammo that was crimped this way and that still shot 3 moa or so, I don't think a pistol bullet, and especially not one with a long shape so the crimp stays pretty far from the base should have a problem with it.

 

[Hammerhead]

I shoot a lot of 158 plated FP's in my 357. Mostly Berry's and Rainier. I use 6.5 grains Unique which is right around 900-950 fps. 5.5 grains Unique will be around 800 fps and is about as low as you should go in magnum brass.
I also use 8.4 grains of HS-6 with these bullets for a stiffer load. No problems there.
I use a profile (roll) crimp and adjust it so I get about a -.003" crimp, which is where you can first see the crimp distort the bullet's surface. You have to deform the surface of the bullet slightly to get a crimp. In the recovered bullets you can see the crimp line, but no plating has been cut and no evidence of of peeling.
With only 5.5 grains of Unique it won't take much crimp to hold the bullets in place as long as you don't over expand/flare your brass.

 

[primerman]

You hang in there Ben Snow. These guys here just like to hear themselves type...
You will find that most reloaders have an opinion and each opinion is right to some extent or another.

As a rule when it comes to crimping a bullet, an old wise man told me once that if the bullet has a cannelure then use a roll crimp, if it doesn't have a cannelure then use a taper crimp. If you are loading 38 special, or 357 mag then you may have to use some kind of crimp to get the bullet to load into the cylinder of your gun.

I have used both a roll, and taper crimp on cannelured bullets, and I have roll crimped non-cannelered bullets. I have found if I roll crimped the cannelured bullets they shoot a little straighter (This is one of those Opinions) Oh, I forgot to mention that all those crimps where on plated bullets. But as mentioned before, if your case length isn't the same them your crimp will be differ for each bullet that is longer or shorter than the case you adjusted your crimp die to. Now if you are going to start trimming brass then you are not going to get each case to an exact length so now you have to give yourself a little tolerance.

I have come to believe that reloading is not an exact science. (Another one of those opinions again) But back to your question about crimping, you won't know until you load a few and try them out. How much roll crimp is up to you but lite to medium would be a better start than a hard crimp.

You may not want to crimp and seat your bullet at the same time. All my troubles started when I tried to load some 38 special bullets. That's when I had to buy a bullet puller. I also have never used the Lee factory crimp die but try it you may like it.

So go out and load a few and maybe you will have a few more questions after that.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Hammerhead wrote: "I shoot a lot of 158 plated FP's in my 357. Mostly Berry's and Rainier. I use 6.5 grains Unique which is right around 900-950 fps. 5.5 grains Unique will be around 800 fps and is about as low as you should go in magnum brass.

Hammer, with all due respect, I have three other sources including from Alliant. They list minimum .357M load for Unique using a Lead 158gr @ 5.3 which delivers 922fps and a Maximum of 6.0 which delivers 1034fps.

Not calling anyone wrong, just reporting the numbers obtained from the sources I am using. Is there a reason for the different numbers? I am loading using 5.6gr of Unique for the Berry's Plated FN.


Thanks

 

[Nick_C_S]

Is there a reason for the different numbers?

Could be that lead slugs and plated bullets are two different things. That was my first thought, anyway. There could also be test barrel length differences; potential variables abound. All that said, I generally don't spend a lot of time getting wrapped around the axle when I run across seemingly conflicting data.

As posted in #15: "My 158gn PFP (Plated Flat Point) recipe with Unique is 7.4 grains. Yields 1084 f/s thorough a 3" bbl; and 1153 f/s through a 4" bbl."

. . . ^ ^ Might be another contradiction? I don't know if it is or not. In the eye of the beholder, I suppose. Point is, in this wonderful world of handloading, we run into this type of thing. There is no substitute for your own personal experience.

Determine your load purpose.
Find reliable load data before you start.
Decide on a likely safe starting point.
Do your loading with care.
Gather data with your chronograph.
Move forward with smart decisions based on your gathered data.
Repeat as needed until your load purpose is achieved.

During this entire process, try not to get into analysis paralysis.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Thanks Nick.

Not trying to overanalyze, just trying to stay within a decent safety margin.
Always told "Don't exceed the minimum/maximum load parameters" in BOLD font by all of the reloading manuals.

Not trying to say any load is right or wrong, just deciding on the proper reference to use as the starting point as a beginner. I suspect the manufacturers include a hefty safety margin on either side of the limits to account for user metering error and reduce legal liability.

Most of the new guys on here will take the expert's advice and purchase several manuals before handloading (I did). However, what about "that guy" that reads a thread that says use load "X" and immediately thinks it will work in his handgun without considering all the other factors. BOOM......

I guess you can't regulate ''stupid", hence the need for the disclaimer I see occasionally.

 

[Nick_C_S]

just deciding on the proper reference to use as the starting point as a beginner.

Yeah, and I know that can be a tricky task for a beginner.

Here's what I did when I was in your situation (making a good "range practice" round for 357 Mag, 158 PFP, Unique) . . .

I looked in Speer #14: It showed their jacketed 158 running from 6.9 to 7.7 grains.
I looked in Hornady 9th: Being that they seem to be a slow powder centric publication, they had no data for Unique.
I looked in Sierra V, 6th printing: Their data started at 7.7 grains. I wasn't comfortable with that contradiction relative to Speer #14, so I disregarded it and moved on.

So I have a load range of 6.9 to 7.7 grains. I decided to load three levels to start: 7.0 grains; 7.2 grains; & 7.4 grains. I like even numbers, so I decided to start at 7.0 grains, instead of the minimum 6.9 grains. I was comfortable with this because I have a lot of experience with both Unique and Speer #14 - neither have ever unpleasantly surprised me. So I was comfortable moving up 1/10 of a grain of charge weight untested (notice, this was an experience-based decision. If I didn't have the experience, I wouldn't have made this decision).

I loaded 10 rounds at each charge level, then carted them off to the range with chronograph in tow.

The 7.4 grain charge delivered as much velocity as I wanted for the purpose (range practice) and was as high as I am comfortable with a plated bullet; thus, there was no reason to continue to work up further (also saving me another trip to the range ).

I then loaded 50 rounds at 7.4 grains and took them to the range for a shoot. This time, I brought my chronograph and my 3" 686; as well as my 4" 686. I was satisfied with the performance (recoil, accuracy, consistency, etc). And now, it is a "set" recipe in my loading repertoire. I now load them in batches of 100.

So that gives a feel for my process. Everybody does things their own way; this one is just mine. The key in this scenario is that Sierra's data contradicted Speer's. I chose the lower and moved on. The contradiction occupied very little time to get rattling around inside my head.

 

[Dufus]

Hi, Ben. Just want to congratulate you on your new hobby and wish you all the best of luck. I think you are a smart man and can tell when someone is blowing smoke up your butt and can tell when you are getting expert advise.

I like the way you have taken up with Nick_C_S.

The only word of wisdom that I can reiterate is to double check you powder before seating the bullets to prevent a no charge and a resultant bullet stuck in your barrel and to ensure against a double charge which can be even more exciting and sometimes down right dangerous.

You have chosen a good caliber to start with as it is mostly chambered in very strong revolvers.

Happy shooting and good luck.

 

[Nick_C_S]

You have chosen a good caliber to start with as it is mostly chambered in very strong revolvers.

Good point. A Ruger Blackhawk 357 Mag is a good sturdy gun. And yes, 38 Special / 357 Magnum are both easy to load, and a great place to start (where I started).

 

[Ben_Snow]

Nick:

We have a conflict in our data. I am using (per Berry's recommendation) Lead bullets as a plated reference, and you (as you mentioned before) use mid level jacketed.


Anyhoo --- Here's my data and sources:

My main Sources are Alliant (website - accessed today), and Lee's Reloading Manual (2nd Ed, 2016 release)

Alliant: Speer 158gr LSWC 6.0 (1034 FPS)
158gr Gold Dot HP 7.7 (1034 FPS)

Lee's: Lead 158gr Low: 5.3 (889 FPS) High: 6.0 (979 FPS)

Other sources:

Hornaday: SWC Leadcast 158gr Low: 3.3 (750 FPS) High 5.0 (950 FPS)

Sierra: JSP Low: 7.7 (1050 FPS) High 8.2 (1100)

Please Note that jacketed trended toward your numbers, Lead toward my numbers.........

So which should I choose? I've already loaded 10 @ 5.6, and was going to load another 50 tonight. Should I compromise, scrap the 5.6 and bump up to 6.0 ?

My concern is not creating too high a load, but definitely want to stay away from a possible squib. Back to You, Nick........

 

[Nick_C_S]

Yeah, I don't even look at lead data when doing plated load work ups - we've had that conversation of course.

Don't scrap the 5.6's. Go ahead and give 'em a whirl. I'm guesstimating about 850-900-ish f/s through your Blackhawk, with a very sooty burn. But they'll go. As always when you're downloaded, make sure the slug goes downrange.

Been meaning to ask: Do you have a chronograph?

I've loaded lead 158 SWC's with 6.0gn Unique - 1014 f/s (4"). And 6.4gn - 1084. And 6.8gn - 1164 f/s; which exceeds my 7.4gn plated load (1153). Plated bullets drag down the barrel like jacketed - hence, the need for considerably more propellant and why I use jacketed data.

Anyway, assuming you wanna get to about 1000 f/s (or more), you're definitely going to need more charge weight. I think it would be fine to move up in 0.4 grain increments at first (6.0, & 6.4). That's what I would do. After that, you might want to go in 0.2 grain increments. My suggestion.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Nick....

Well... glad that 6.0gr is preferable.. Already cranked out 50 @ 6.0 tonight prior to reading your most recent post.

If the 6.0 load works good, I'll store the 5.6 away for the zombie apocalypse.

Nope...don't have a chronograph .... something else to buy! My spouse is ready to kill me, I sold her on the huge "savings" of hand-loading vs buying. Told her all I need is a press, die, powder, bullets....$200 tops !!! Then I just HAD to buy a digital scale, a RCBS analog scale, a caliper, tapered die, and 10 other things. She keeps watching these Amazon boxes arrive every day and rolls her eyes..

Ohhh, but wait, there MORE ---- I told her I will build the workbench myself, that will save lots of money....six trips to Home Depot, $200 in lumber and Plexiglas---yup big savings.....My $200 investment has ballooned to $600+!!

Cant complain though, she still supports my new 'hobby', partly because she shoots. We crank out 200 rounds (each) per week at the range. She shoots a nifty little Sig P320F. I was able to purchase the P320 at a LE reseller; it came with the SIGLite night sights already installed, very handy as she also uses it for home defense. She is still shooting with commercial 9mm ammo, not comfortable having her shoot my hand loaded ammo until I feel more confident in my abilities.

 

[Ben_Snow]

Dufus Wrote: "Hi, Ben. Just want to congratulate you on your new hobby and wish you all the best of luck."

Thank You for your kind words sir.... Lots of golden info on this forum...

Ya.. I keep bugging Nick, he's a good guy with lots of practical knowledge using plated bullets. ...

.. so far he keeps responding, and I keep asking more questions... rinse-repeat...