New gun safeties: reliability/dislike?

most safeties are junk. plain and simple.
especially if your hands are not the same size and the idiot who designed it.

only the 1911 comes close to being a safety that is actually usable with the hand holding the gun, every other semi auto needs the use of my other hand.

not so on a revolver.
 
A double action revolver with a hammer block does not need additional equipment to be safe. When the IL on my S&W 60-14 caused the gun to lock up at the range I developed an instant dislike for the added "safety" feature. It may have been a fluke but it did cause me to question the guns reliability. What good is a defensive weapon if it doesn't go bang every time? If that happens the gun becomes nothing but a small (and expensive) club.

FWIW the gun has performed flawlessly since I disabled the IL...
 
"So take this as a challenge"

They are unnecessary.

The likely reason you get no responses when you ask about them is because people think you're kidding when you ask a question with such an obvious answer.
 
Sorry, Mike. I did go too far afield, although I did try to make some of my posts about the lock.:o

Another thought has occurred to me, and it is yet another danger of having an internal lock, and the general mindset that having a lock on (or in) the gun is the way to make it safe.

Totally aside from the demonstrated risk (no matter how small) that failure of the lock can render your gun inoperable, potentially at a critical moment, is the fact that failure to use (or good heavens! disable) an internal lock could also land you in serious trouble!

Imagine that you were so foolish as to allow your loaded and unlocked gun to be taken and used by persons unauthorized! See the steely glint in the prosecutor's eye as he faces the jury and explains to them how you not only provided the loaded weapon that killed the child/store clerk/etc., BUT that you did not even have the compassion to use the built in lock! Ladies and gentlemen, this entire tragedy could have been prevented by the simple turn of a small key!!! But the defendant did not even have the compassion for his fellow man to do even that!! He is most certainly negligent, and a culpable accessory to this henious crime! Yada, yada,yada....

So, here is another danger to the internal lock mindset. They are going to look at that lock as the last line of defense, and an infallible one, at that. Wouldn't even matter to them that a thief would have to break into your house, then into your safe, if you had a gun with a lock IN it, and it wasn't locked (or you couldn't PROOVE) it was locked when stolen, they are going to blame YOU!

No, its not right, but they are goint to make it sound like not having your gun lock ON at all times off the firing line is the same as leaving your keys in the ignition and the door open. And if there is ammo for that gun within 15 miles of it, they will try to make it sound like not only did you leave the keys in the ignition, but left the motor running! They will stop short of actually saying you put the gun in the criminal's hands, but they will certainly imply it!

Internal locks...BAD, BAD, BAD IDEA!
 
I like safeties. I do not like internal locks and will not purchase a firearm that has one. But a good safety is added insurance for a citizen who is carrying a firearm for self defense. The double action only pistols made for self defense are so similar in function to revolvers that I see no need for a safety on them. If there is one, such as on the LC9, then I will likely use it.

The prime reason I will not carry a Glock or S&W M&P pistol is that they have no safeties and they are essentially single action pistols. I can no longer drill to the extent I did in military service and I believe that I can defend myself with a safety-fitted pistol with the level of drill I can do now.
 
There are only 2 real safeties involved with guns that you have to make SURE are used...... 1) your brain , 2) your finger not on the trigger. All else is surplus and subject to failure, failure to use and failure to function.
 
You all know of course that the Colt Single Action Army had no safety feature at all and still doesn't. Even the double-action revolvers the army used up until the 1911 was adopted had no safety features either. There was no hammer block of any kind. So those revolvers had to be carried with only five rounds for safety's sake. I wonder if people were complaining when the hammer block safeties started appearing on revolvers a hundred years ago? The 1911 was an advance in more ways than one and was generally a safer gun than most contempory revolvers.

Other companies also advertised how safe their revolvers were, probably best was the "hammer the hammer" advertisment of (I think) Iver Johnson. Safety is no accident.
 
I know that but the army used Colt revolvers. I imagine the 1917 models had positive safeties but I don't know if the Model 1909 did or not. I'll have to do some research. At any rate, the army's NCO manual of 1917 specifically said to carry only five rounds in revolvers but it also said the 1911 .45 auto could be carried hammer down on a chambered round.
 
I wonder if people were complaining when the hammer block safeties started appearing on revolvers a hundred years ago? The 1911 was an advance in more ways than one and was generally a safer gun than most contempory revolvers.

I don't think there was much complaining about those "safeties" back then, because they were completely internal (no keyhole to serve as a constant visual reminder) and they were actually an improvement in the handling safety (drop safety) of the guns.

The 1911 was a "safer" gun mechanically, but there were a great number of accidents them, due to the "learning curve" of the era. Today we know a bit better, but back then a lot of men, including some who became senior officers in the military were not comfortable with the safey of the 1911 Patton was reputed to have had an accidental discharge with a 1911 in his junior officer days and distrusted them. Can't say for sure about that, but note he carried two revolvers by choice.

[QUOTEAt any rate, the army's NCO manual of 1917 specifically said to carry only five rounds in revolvers but it also said the 1911 .45 auto could be carried hammer down on a chambered round. ][/QUOTE]

The Army of those days was an interesting blend of hardcore tradtiionalism, even in the face of improved technology, and unhesitating acceptence of some "new tech" at face value. And the blend was by no means even across the board or on any specific issue.

Army had decades of Colt (and a few others) revolvers that had to be carried empty under the hammer for drop/impact safety. So I find it quite easy to believe their manual said carry only 5, even if the current revolvers were safe with 6.

And at the same time, the Army had recently done pretty extensive testing before adopting the 1911, and knew about its inertia firing pin, and that no blow to the lowered hammer is likely to set off the round. Using the standards of the day, it was extremely drop safe.

And another thing to consider, while the manual said it was safe to carry with the hammer down on a live round, what was the ordered standard of carry? I can't say for the early years, but I know that from the WWII era on, if you were on guard, or just carrying, and not in combat, the rule was chamber empty! Magazine loaded, but chamber empty!

There has been some argument lately that claims that method of carry indicates the brass knew that the 1911 wasn't safe to carry chamber loaded, cocked and locked or hammer down. This is, of course, horse hockey. Those regs were in place because of safety concerns alright, safety concerns about the thousands of young men, virtually always under trained with the pistol by our standards today, carrying with a round in the chamber.

Remember the military's point of view does not put the protection of the individual soldier/seaman/airman/marine above the mission.

Congress/state legislatures didn't pass a law requiring the hammer block safeties in the revolvers, the makers thought it up as a useful improvement.
Another big difference right there.

Seatbelt laws came along long after seatbelts did, and a lot of us resent them. Not because its a good idea, but because we are forced to do it, under penalty of fine. What was once freedom of choice is now no choice, its a legal requirement. For our own good, of course. Plus its a money maker for the govt. Win, win in their eyes, I suppose. And as the new generation grows up, knowing nothing else, the majority will automatically assume its the only way its done. You wear seatbelts, guns have locks, that's just the way its suppose to be....tell them that at one time, we actually had a choice in the matter, and get a blank stare, and often, a "why would you not do it that way?" They know nothing else.

Note: I am NOT saying we should not wear seatbelts, just that we didn't get fined for making a stupid or risky decision, and now, we do. We should all wear our setbelts all the time we are on the road. its the law, after all...
 
To reply to 44 AMP, I generally agree with what you say. Regarding the old manual, I have no idea what the SOP was regarding how the 1911 was meant to be carried originally but a careful reading of some of the old manuals can be eye opening. One said not to ram the magazine home but to just seat it with a steady push. Otherwise the magazine lips could be damaged and there are sure lots comments here and there about magazines not working right. Who knows? Maybe they were right. However, readings of other manuals may not even mention the fact. Either way, the manuals were the official doctrine as far as they went.

You say the army in 1917 was a blend of hardcore traditionalism and acceptence of new tech. That's the way it has always been and that's the way it is now. However, I don't think that the safety of individual servicemen is never above the mission. Parachute jumps are sometimes canceled for that very reason, even operational jumps, because they're dangerous under the best of circumstances. But every time I hear the expression "force protection," I can't help but think they should have all just stayed in the barracks.
 
Back to the topic of safeties.

I believe in most areas of work, if you're carrying a sidearm, it is to only be used when your primary weapon goes down which in that case your mind is moving about 200mph and the last thing you want to worry about is something in the way of you pulling the trigger. Thus, having a safety/lock or anything else constricting your ability to draw, aim and shoot is worthless. I don't mean to sound stereotypical, but your trigger finger is your safety in that case. This applying to sidearms (pistols) only.

My opinion about locks of any sort on any weapon is that weapons are made to kill. Competition and sport shooting is only a secondary task. If you don't want your weapon to magically just send round flying through your house while you sleep, then don't put rounds in the gun... but never impede your weapon system so that you can't use it in an instant when the need arises. If you can't do that, don't buy a gun.
 
Lots of people sure seem to dislike the internal locks for fear of it failing, and I think that's a valid point. I think they provide a false sense of security, along with trigger locks and cable locks. If you have kids or others in the house whom you don't trust to handle your guns unsupervised, the guns should either be on your person or completely inaccessible. In my mind I'm seeing a kid shooting himself or a friend, because he's learned that Daddy's gun is in the nightstand, and although Pa said never to play with it, it's ok to do because it's got the lock. So he hauls it out one day and blows Jimmy's head off because Dad forgot to turn the key before he left for work, so this time when he squeezed the trigger and said, "bang bang", the trigger moved, cylinder rolled, and the round was fired. There's $.02 for ya.
 
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