New gun safeties: reliability/dislike?

I still maintain those locks fail to do anything worth while and safe once the firearm leaves the factory. Those things may be easily defeated by the ne'er-do-wells, however the novice guy/gal that buys a firearm with sd/hd in mind has his/her survival chances already diminished once the provided literature is read. 0300hrs freshly rattled out of a sound sleep is no time to try to manipulate some sort of key into a firearm whether it's loaded or not. And "NOT" is worse yet.

Sure they work great... for lawyer proofing.

in this case at least it does have a valid legal purpose.
Which is to appease unwarranted government intrusion onto the people of Marylands' 2A? How valid is that, and why wasn't it fought against a little harder?
 
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the state of Maryland requires all new handguns sold there to be equipped with some sort of internal locking device. While the practical purpose is questionable, in this case at least it does have a valid legal purpose.


I get the "legal" purpose of course, but I can't come up with a real-world situation where activating the internal lock would make me feel "safer". The gun is either in the safe, under my control or neither of the above. And if it is "neither of the above", then I should probably have it secured with something more than a fancy allen key.

edit... or more specifically, I'm having trouble coming up with the gun-hating, ignorate, fearing and/or do-gooder scenario where the integrated lock is beneficial... I guess what I'm thinking is that for the integrated lock to be beneficial, you would have to do something pretty reckless / careless / stupid, which tells me, you're probably not the type of person who is going to use the lock anyway.
 
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Originally posted by 10-96
Quote:
in this case at least it does have a valid legal purpose.

Which is to appease unwarranted government intrusion onto the people of Marylands' 2A? How valid is that, and why wasn't it fought against a little harder?

I didn't say that I agreed with the law, just that it was there. I guess you could say that the purpose is to provide a new handgun that is available to the citizens of Maryland in spite of the draconian laws of that state. As to why it wasn't fought harder, you'd have to ask a citizen of Maryland about that (I'm in Indiana and grew up in Illinois).

Originally posted by mrvco
Quote:
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the state of Maryland requires all new handguns sold there to be equipped with some sort of internal locking device. While the practical purpose is questionable, in this case at least it does have a valid legal purpose.


I get the "legal" purpose of course, but I can't come up with a real-world situation where activating the internal lock would make me feel "safer". The gun is either in the safe, under my control or neither of the above. And if it is "neither of the above", then I should probably have it secured with something more than a fancy allen key.

edit... or more specifically, I'm having trouble coming up with the gun-hating, ignorate, fearing and/or do-gooder scenario where the integrated lock is beneficial... I guess what I'm thinking is that for the integrated lock to be beneficial, you would have to do something pretty reckless / careless / stupid, which tells me, you're probably not the type of person who is going to use the lock anyway.

I don't disagree with you, but if you're unfortunate enough to live in Maryland, what does or does not make you comfortable is secondary to what is or is not legal.
 
Its for the children....

state of Maryland requires all new handguns sold there to be equipped with some sort of internal locking device.

One has to wonder, how the human race survived and bred like crazy (330 million +? in the USA alone) when for longer than the history of the USA there have been handguns without internal locks!

The Maryland law isn't about safety, although they will say it is. They lie.
Its about a legal way to reduce the number of new handguns that can be sold in Maryland. Period. It does nothing else.

One cannot claim (without lying) that a lock on a handgun decreases child death, any more than having the gun locked in something does the same. Why didn't they pass a "safe storage" law? Oh, well, that law, and compliance inspections (which is the only way to enforce it beforehand) would infringe on people's rights, right?

And just how is it that limiting new handgun sales to the small number of models that have internal locks, (and excluding the legal sale of hundreds of models that do not), how does that NOT infringe on people's rights, not just RKBA, but the basic right of free choice?

What I dislike most about the internal locks is not so much that they are there, but that they are being shoved down our throats as the only way gunmakers can legally sell their products.
 
Its about a legal way to reduce the number of new handguns that can be sold in Maryland

I agree with this, and here in MA, they do similar things. I admire the way they have twisted the 'let's be safe' aspect into fitting in with an anti-gun agenda; really I do; it's very clever and effective strategy.

What I really don't like is the fabricated logic they dish out along with the "need" for new safeties.
 
I believe but might be wrong that you are talking about the trigger locks they give people when they buy firearms. They throw it in for free usually anyways(if someone has an interest); this might be the maryland law? I have no problem w/gunshop sellers giving people triggerlocks w/gun purchases but I wouldnt' recommend locking up the HD weapons in this manner.
 
And lets be clear, a lock (any kind) is NOT a SAFETY! It matters not to me if the maker calls it a safety, its name doesn't change what it is.

True. A safety lock, for example, can be easily discribed as a safety feature---but NOT a safety.
 
I believe but might be wrong that you are talking about the trigger locks they give people when they buy firearms. They throw it in for free usually anyways(if someone has an interest); this might be the maryland law? I have no problem w/gunshop sellers giving people triggerlocks w/gun purchases but I wouldnt' recommend locking up the HD weapons in this manner.

I'm not sure who you're responding to exactly, but my S&W 627 came with both an integrated hammer lock as well as the accessory cable lock.
 
Just to be clear Maryland does require an "internal lock' to purchase a handgun, but not necessarily a built-in lock. The Omega Lock, which is a dummy cartridge like device which expands in the chamber via a long key inserted down the barrel to lock the action, satisfies all the Maryland legal requirements. The approval of the Omega lock greatly expanded the availability of guns legal to purchase in the "free :barf: state".
 
I'm not sure who you're responding to exactly, but my S&W 627 came with both an integrated hammer lock as well as the accessory cable lock.

This is what I meant mrvco and I am sorry if I am offbase. the little cable locks one can stick right thru the cylinder so the weapon can't shoot. Sometimes they give both or a little cover that can go over the trigger too. Safeties are part of the weapon - these things are extra to just protect newbies, kids, etc. I get one w/every gun and save it in the safe.

PS- Happy 4th of July to everyone.
 
why I detest such stuff

This lock/safety 'stuff' is masturbatory in nature, simply intended as a 'feel good'.

Doesn't 'feel good' to me; just more evidence of our decline away from personal responsibility.
Sad.



One other point: More junk to fail, more pieces, more money, more time wasted developing, more worthless effort.
 
I don't want any kind of safety on my CCW. Just pull it and pull the trigger. I like the DA/SA Decocking Auto for CCW. Other guns don't make that much difference to me. I usually hunt with a SA and have to pull the hammer back on it.
 
A safety lock, for example, can be easily discribed as a safety feature---but NOT a safety.

Except when it is.

The original name, used by Colt, and used by the US Military (at least through the 1970s when I served) for the "thumb safety" of the 1911A1 pistol is "Safety lock". This is because it is a safety, and unlike the grip safety, it "locks" in position, via a spring detent plunger.

It was a simpler time, and we tended to call things what they were, not what an agenda driven bureaucrat wished them to be.

I find the entrire concept that things must be made "safe", because people are too stupid or ignorant to be safe themselves, repugnant. It flies in the face of the concept of personal liberty. It implies that they know what is better for us than we do, and has been the creed of nobles, kings, tyrants and dictators since man came out of the caves.

Our Founders believed that we have a natural right to make our own dicisions. And the responsibility to live with the consequences. Or die by them, if we are so foolish.

There is another underlying concept at work in the "safety at all costs" concept, and that is we must be protected from ourselves, because we do not belong to ourselves, we belong to the state. We are a resource, and must be protected from all, even our own foolishness, so we will be able to serve the state, through labor, taxes, and as cannon fodder, should the percieved need arise in the vision of our leaders.

Again, this is the creed of the overlords, those who, by breeding and brith, or by right of conquest, or in our country having won election, are in power, and dearly wish to remain so.

Service to the state was not the dream of our Founders. Their vision was for the state to serve the people. The United States has been more successful in that endeavor than any other nation in history, and our wealth, power, and standard of living are a result of that philosophy.

When we abandon it, as many are seeking to have us do, we will suffer, and be diminished because of it.

It saddens me to see it, but we are already well along that particular path.
 
I'm not entirely sure that any of the safety features on handguns, automatic pistols in particular, makes them entirely safe. In fact, some manuals pretty much say just that. Some of them go a little overboard, however, and leave you with the impression that they're much to dangerous to actually use. One wonders.

But I also wonder about what the founding fathers thought about service to the state. Were there no such feelings, then the concept of patriot has no meaning. At any rate, I'm certain that one thing they had in mind was "a more perfect union." A nation they clearly wanted, not a confederation of independent states.
 
But I also wonder about what the founding fathers thought about service to the state. Were there no such feelings, then the concept of patriot has no meaning. At any rate, I'm certain that one thing they had in mind was "a more perfect union." A nation they clearly wanted, not a confederation of independent states.

I think the difference is in the way the service is offered. A patriot gives their service to the state, knowing that serving the state is also serving themselves and loved ones.

An authoritarian state demands service, and considers such service not only its just due, but a reward, in and of itself.

There are, of course times when the line is blurred. Authoritarian states may, at times show benevolence to thier citizens, and a representitive state must, at times, be authoritarian to acheive necessary ends.

I believe the Founders considered service to the state to be a moral obligation, as a limited contribution. They wanted people who would take a turn at the duty of governance, and then go home to pursue their private lives. The idea of a milita vs a standing army as one example. And the also recognised that they had to work within the culture and technology of the times. A standing army was an anathema (although they did understand its necessity on occassion), but a full time Navy was considered right an proper.

Most likely because first of all, the operation of ships and sailing was not something you could teach plowboys to master with a few weeks of drill. And second, and prehaps most importantly, the Navy could never occuppy and oppress the people (beyond the reach of port and coastal towns at any rate). Navies were costly in a way that armies of the era were not.

The Founders wanted a nation, the precise makeup of which was a very lively subject of debate. Read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. UI believe they all wanted a nation stronger than the Articles of Confederation could provide, and with the Constitution, we got it. And it was, at first, a nation of States, not a single nation the way we think of it today.

getting back on track, I do not care for the idea of gun locks, and even less for the legal mandate requiring their sale/use.

There are very few true accidents with firearms. Most so called accidents are the result of stupidity and or careless with the arm. Handguns have a higher rate of this happening because they are small, and easily pointed. They can be held and even fired by toddler size children in some cases and by elementary school children in nearly all cases.

The tragic "accidents" of children shooting others didn't happen often when the most common arm a child might encounter was a 5 foot long musket. And the child had been raised understanding what the gun did, if not exactly how.

Think about all the things a lock is supposed to prevent. All those "I didn't know it was loaded", and "It just went off" situations, they are the ones the antis use as emotional ammo to further their agenda.]

Anyone remember the flap from a few years ago about the muskets hanging on the wall at the Massachusetts capitol? There were a couple of the guns used at Lexington and Concord. Not just guns of the type, but the actual guns used (or so I heard). Because schoolchildren visited the capitol, current Mass law required the gun to be locked!

There is safety. There is common sense. And there is outright, over the top idiocy in pursuit of safety. We have all three at work in the nation, right now.
 
44 AMP,

My goodness, you rock! :D

BlueTrain, your statement
At any rate, I'm certain that one thing they had in mind was "a more perfect union." A nation they clearly wanted, not a confederation of independent states.
is belied by the historical record. Obviously, as 44 AMP pointed out, our first attempt at "nationhood" envisioned precisely that, a confederation of independent states. Even the federal constitution under which we are governed today set severe restrictions on the reach of the central government, reserving most powers and functions to the several states. In fact, until the War Between the States, I believe the grammatical convention was often (not always) to refer to "the United States are . . ."

Only after that war did it become nearly universal to say "the United States is." Some viewed this as a good thing. I do not join them.

Back on topic, the locks are repugnant and offensive precisely because they were mandated by government and/or trial lawyers. There was no market demand for them, and no improvement in the function of guns, or their safety, with them. They are an appendix. They are tits on a bull. And they are additional parts capable of failing. I bought, on an impulse, a S&W 642 with the lawyer lock. I really wish I'd restrained myself, as much as I appreciate the light-weight J-frame revolver.

None of my other firearms has an internal or integral or infernal locking system (I prefer the last), and none ever will, the Good Lord willing.
 
Guys, all of this talk about service makes me wonder...

Is there a safety in that service?

And, if there is, is it a sure safety? As in, does it prevent the service from going off inadvertently, leading to negligent discharge service?

And just where did the Founding Gun Designers stand on the issue of mandatory service safety?

Off topic, guys.

Take it to L&CR, please, because it sure as hell is off topic here and has nothing to do with the OP's question.
 
The thing is, I don't think these features are for us. The impression I get of these new internal locks and safeties is that they aren't features intended for use at the firing range or in the field, but features for lawyers to use to cover butts in the courtroom.

At best, they are unnecessary extra parts that we still have to pay for.

At worst, they can break and disable a firearm entirely in a moment of crisis. Lesser problems include greatly complicating takedown, or ruining trigger pull.

I think it's worse that these features are considered necessary at all more than the problems they cause.
 
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