New 4473 and Hispanic question?

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Wyoredman said:
Dogtown, Your explination makes sense... kind of. I cosidder being "hispanic" as having familial roots in central and south America. Kind of like being eropean, or asian, or north american, or african.
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South or central America would be Latino (from "Latin America"). Hispanic would be from Spain.

My wife is a Latina. Although her family on both sides is directly descended from the Spanish conquistadores she does not claim to be Hispanic.
 
We're really drifting, here.

The change removing the 90 days' proof of residency requirement comes from a 2011 DOJ decision that it was unlawful to treat resident aliens differently than citizens.

As far as the change to the ethnicity fields, I don't know. If anyone else does, feel free to chime in.

Otherwise, let's leave general discussions of race to another forum, as they're not appropriate here.
 
Tom Servo,

I agree, this thread did drift. I think the ATF drifted also when they added that question.

Feel free to close the thread before someone offends someone. I don't think anyone has an answer to my original question anyhow.

Thanks for the responses!
 
10a. and 10b. do NOT have to be completed on the 4473.
Anyone that tells you otherwise has not read the instructions. Leaving 10a. and/or 10b. blank are not grounds for denial. The only valid reasons for transfer denial (related to the 4473) are outlined in the instructions with references to 27 CFR 478, and USC 922.

Obviously, it's usually easier to comply with the wishes of the FFL or idiot handling the NICS check, than to keep arguing with them. But, they're wrong, just the same.


My last 4473 resulted in the salesman getting pretty upset about me refusing to fill out 10a/10b. Eventually, the store manager politely asked me to comply, because NICS approval would not come through without it ("even if I was right"). So... I filled in information that probably gave them the impression that I was:
A: an idiot
B: a double-stuffed Oreo cookie.

Hispanic? Yes
White - check
Black - check
Asian - check
American Indian - check
Pacific Islander - blank

I'm two of the five. Take your pick. ;)
 
Actually, you're signing to the following when you complete the form:

I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete.
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While there might be a technical exception, no dealer is going to want those fields left blank. It would raise an eyebrow during an audit. Furthermore, the NICS center expects a response in that field. I haven't tried "customer refuses to answer," but I don't see the check proceeding without it.

You also might want to reconsider the wisdom of checking fields that don't apply to you. While it's a small thing, it's still falsification.
 
Does the new form have a check box for "Other"? I'm always offended that these racial/ethnicity (I'm still not clear on just how race is substantially different from ethnicity) don't seem to allow me a way to claim being the minority that I am: WASP.
 
I'm just glad that as a resident alien I don't have to provide 90 days of bills. Why? The wife pays most online and I don't want TP ask her for copies :-)
 
FrankenMauser 10a. and 10b. do NOT have to be completed on the 4473.
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Please provide a citation or reference that says otherwise.
The Form 4473 instructions state clearly "The buyer must personally complete Section A of this form and certify (sign) that the answers are true, correct, and complete...".

As Section A contains Question 10a and 10b please explain how they do not have to be completed.




Anyone that tells you otherwise has not read the instructions. Leaving 10a. and/or 10b. blank are not grounds for denial. The only valid reasons for transfer denial (related to the 4473) are outlined in the instructions with references to 27 CFR 478, and USC 922.
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The "only valid reasons".......horsehockey.

While the instructions to Questions 11b-11l define "prohibited persons", it is not the only reason to cancel the transaction. Failure to complete each question, failure to sign the form, or failure to provide a valid government issued photo ID will also result in the transaction being cancelled.

And it is perfectly legal for the dealer to cancel the transaction for no reason at all.:rolleyes: Get snotty with me while filiing out your 4473......guess what? No soup for you.
 
Seriously, what's the big deal? Just answer the question and move on.
I'm certainly not offended by checking what race I am...

Jim
 
I missed this box as well last time. I was wondering if it was the whole "white Hispanic" stunt the media was pulling with the Treyvon Martin fiasco. I never considered Fast and Furious but I suppose it would make more sense. But that could be constituted to racial profiling/discrimination if the ATF and NICS are forcing the issue to possibly deny purchase to an individual.
 
While the instructions to Questions 11b-11l define "prohibited persons", it is not the only reason to cancel the transaction. Failure to complete each question, failure to sign the form, or failure to provide a valid government issued photo ID will also result in the transaction being cancelled.
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That's all covered in the instructions/purpose.

And it is perfectly legal for the dealer to cancel the transaction for no reason at all. Get snotty with me while filiing out your 4473......guess what? No soup for you.
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That's a separate subject. It's not directly related to the 4473. And "snotty" isn't the proper term for my demeanor during the transaction. It would be more accurately described as "stubborn resolve".

I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete.
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That's a certification of not omitting important information; not a certification of having filled out every box on the form.
Everything is required... except questions 8, 9, 10a, 10b, and 15 (if 14 is "United States of America"). So, it's "most" things are required.
Under no circumstances that I can imagine, will every box in section A be filled out.
What makes 10a and 10b any different?
Nowhere in the instructions, 27 CFR 478, or USC 922, is that listed as a reason for denial.


I'm getting requests to prove that refusing to fill out 10a and 10b is not a reason for denial, when the references are all listed in my previous post. Unless you want the entire text of 27 CFR 478 and USC 922, there's no reference to give.

How about a reference showing that it IS a reason for denial? ;)



And, if they don't like what I (might) fill out for "race", they'll have to sequence my DNA to prove otherwise.
 
FrankenMauser
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I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete.
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That's a certification of not omitting important information; not a certification of having filled out every box on the form.
Everything is required... except questions 8, 9, 10a, 10b, and 15 (if 14 is "United States of America"). So, it's "most" things are required.
Under no circumstances that I can imagine, will every box in section A be filled out.
What makes 10a and 10b any different?
Nowhere in the instructions, 27 CFR 478, or USC 922, is that listed as a reason for denial.
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Again....Please provide a citation or reference that says Question 10 does NOT have to be completed on the 4473.



I'm getting requests to prove that refusing to fill out 10a and 10b is not a reason for denial, when the references are all listed in my previous post. Unless you want the entire text of 27 CFR 478 and USC 922, there's no reference to give.
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No, I requested that you provide a citation to prove your claim that 10a and 10b do not require an answer. YOU invented the straw man argument that the refusing to answer was not a reason for denial.

You claim the entire 27CFR478 and USC 922 as a reference? Thats laughable, please cite the portions of either that say a customer (transferee) does not have to answer 10a and 10b.

I think you fail to understand the difference between a dealer cancelling a transaction and reason that FBI NICS can deny the transaction.


How about a reference showing that it IS a reason for denial?
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Read the 4473.
It won't even make it to a NICS denial because the dealer is not to proceed until all applicable questions on the 4473 have been completed. But, since you asked here's the citation from 27CFR478 that DOES REQUIRE the customer to provide answers to Question 10:
§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(c)(1) Prior to making an over-the-counter transfer of a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer so transferring the firearm shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing the transferee's name, sex, residence address (including county or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth; height, weight and race of the transferee; the transferee's country of citizenship; the transferee's INS-issued alien number or admission number; the transferee's State of residence; and certification by the transferee that the transferee is not prohibited by the Act from transporting or shipping a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce or receiving a firearm which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce or possessing a firearm in or affecting commerce.
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Read the 4473.
It won't even make it to a NICS denial because the dealer is not to proceed until all applicable questions on the 4473 have been completed. But, since you asked here's the citation from 27CFR478 that DOES REQUIRE the customer to provide answers to Question 10:
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You probably should have lead with that, in the first place. It absolutely amazes me, just how far you can push legal topics with people demanding references, before they'll finally look it up for themselves.

That wasn't too difficult to find, was it?
;)
 
It absolutely amazes me, just how far you can push legal topics with people demanding references, before they'll finally look it up for themselves.
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It wasn't Tom's responsibility to look up references. It's yours. You made the allegation, therefore the burden of proof falls to you.
 
The idiocy started in the 1960s . The Gov't asked companies to give them info on the race of their employees. Sadly only a few companies [the one I worked for is one] refused quoting the federal law that it is illegal to ask an employee what race he is !! :p
Hitler had a policy of you are Jewish if you are at least 1/8 th Jewish. What is the policy here for Hispanic ??
 
FrankenMauser
Quote:
Read the 4473.
It won't even make it to a NICS denial because the dealer is not to proceed until all applicable questions on the 4473 have been completed. But, since you asked here's the citation from 27CFR478 that DOES REQUIRE the customer to provide answers to Question 10:
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You probably should have lead with that, in the first place. It absolutely amazes me, just how far you can push legal topics with people demanding references, before they'll finally look it up for themselves.

That wasn't too difficult to find, was it?
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So.........I guess that means that your claim that one does not have to complete Question 10 is baloney.

Maybe you won't be so smug the next time the store manager disagrees with you.....because you were wrong.;)
 
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